Instrument departure, non-IFR airport

On 03/02/07 08:04, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
On Mar 2, 9:15 am, Mark Hansen wrote:

What's VIFNO?


Google says: "Void IF Not Off by".


FAAH 7340.1 says CVINO


You asked what he meant and I told you.

Sheeesh.

On Mar 2, 10:35 am, Mark Hansen wrote:
On 03/02/07 08:04, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

You asked what he meant and I told you.

Sheeesh.


I didn't ask YOU what he meant. What qualifies you to speak for
someone else?

Sheeeeeesh.

On Mar 2, 5:11 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:
On Mar 1, 11:51 pm, wrote:



Recently I tried to depart from an non-tower airport that has no
instrument approach procedure, and hence no instrument departure. I
was told that I could not get a clearance on the ground, even with
VIFNO etc., and that I would have to depart VFR and pick my clearance
up while airborne. The recommendation made to me by both TRACON and
local FSDO for departing IFR with a low ceiling was to get a special
VFR clearance into the towered airport 6 miles away [which has an
approach and then depart IFR from there.

My question is, if I take responsibility for staying away from the
rocks [assume a low ceiling, above the tops of small hills, but below
minimum vectoring altitude], shouln't I be able to get a clearance on
the ground?

What's VIFNO? Did they say why they couldn't issue a clearance while
you were on the ground? It's not prohibited by FAAO 7110.65.


VIFNO = Void if not off by [sorry- old habits...]

Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field
elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to
have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/
sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is
3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24
there are taller rocks to the North]. I heard from both the
controller and local pilots that zero-zero departures used to be
permitted until about 2 years ago and since then clearances while on
the ground have been unavilable. Now the airport is only 10 NM SE of
Ontario...so I'm guessing that my IFR departure off Flabob negatively
impacts their inbounds into ONT until they have identifed me on radar
or I'm through the MVA. I have suspected this is the funcamental I'm
not permitted a clearance and that until 2 years ago there may have
been a Letter of Agreement between ONT tower and SoCal departure that
permitted Flabob IFR departures. If so, am I not getting a raw deal
on "first come, first, served"?

BTW, the FSDO guy was the least helpful: "No instrument departure, no
clearances on the ground." When I protested that this was clearly in
error he just repeated what he said, adding some impatient attitude.
That was the end of that conversation.

wrote:


Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field
elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to
have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/
sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is
3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24
there are taller rocks to the North].

Runway 24 takes you into the KRAL Class D almost immediately. I am sure
no one likes that when they can't see you.

Runway 6 is pointed towards terrain that causes the MVA to rise to 4000
quite close-in. The airport is in a terrible location both airspace and
terrain-wise for IFR procedures. If you takeoff on 6 not only do you
have a terrain problem there is an issue of the Ontario Class C with a
floor of 2700 in that area, below any MVA.

On Mar 2, 8:41 am, Sam Spade wrote:
wrote:

Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field
elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to
have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/
sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is
3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24
there are taller rocks to the North].

Runway 24 takes you into the KRAL Class D almost immediately. I am sure
no one likes that when they can't see you.

Runway 6 is pointed towards terrain that causes the MVA to rise to 4000
quite close-in. The airport is in a terrible location both airspace and
terrain-wise for IFR procedures. If you takeoff on 6 not only do you
have a terrain problem there is an issue of the Ontario Class C with a
floor of 2700 in that area, below any MVA.

The issue witih KRAL is a non-issue as far as my question is
concerned. There are many cases in which multiple towered airports
are near each other and you can still get an IFR departure; both
Northern and Southern California have many examples: SFO and SQL, HWD
and OAK, SJC and RHV, HHR and LAX. The TRACON works it out; that is
part of their job.

Regarding terrain: I'm talking about a departure off 24 with a
ceiling high enough to see and avoid all obstacles which, in any
event, is not or should not be ATC's issue. I don't think either of
these concerns is the cause of the issue here.

wrote:



The issue witih KRAL is a non-issue as far as my question is
concerned. There are many cases in which multiple towered airports
are near each other and you can still get an IFR departure; both
Northern and Southern California have many examples: SFO and SQL, HWD
and OAK, SJC and RHV, HHR and LAX. The TRACON works it out; that is
part of their job.

Apples and Oranges. All those close-by airports have OPDs and in some
cases, radar coverage to the ground.

Regarding terrain: I'm talking about a departure off 24 with a
ceiling high enough to see and avoid all obstacles which, in any
event, is not or should not be ATC's issue. I don't think either of
these concerns is the cause of the issue here.

ATC does not know what ceiling you may elect on your hip-pocket ODP, nor
would they care. Their concern is airspace. They cannot coordinate a
procedure that is neither established nor flight inspected.

On Mar 2, 10:41 am, Sam Spade wrote:

Runway 24 takes you into the KRAL Class D almost immediately. I am sure
no one likes that when they can't see you.

Runway 6 is pointed towards terrain that causes the MVA to rise to 4000
quite close-in. The airport is in a terrible location both airspace and
terrain-wise for IFR procedures. If you takeoff on 6 not only do you
have a terrain problem there is an issue of the Ontario Class C with a
floor of 2700 in that area, below any MVA.


None of which precludes the issuance of an IFR clearance from RIR.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

On Mar 2, 10:41 am, Sam Spade wrote:

Runway 24 takes you into the KRAL Class D almost immediately. I am sure
no one likes that when they can't see you.

Runway 6 is pointed towards terrain that causes the MVA to rise to 4000
quite close-in. The airport is in a terrible location both airspace and
terrain-wise for IFR procedures. If you takeoff on 6 not only do you
have a terrain problem there is an issue of the Ontario Class C with a
floor of 2700 in that area, below any MVA.



None of which precludes the issuance of an IFR clearance from RIR.

I didn't say that it necessarily does. I can also understand why SoCal
and KRAL tower don't want to do it.

On Mar 2, 9:53 am, wrote:

Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field
elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to
have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/
sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is
3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24
there are taller rocks to the North]. I heard from both the
controller and local pilots that zero-zero departures used to be
permitted until about 2 years ago and since then clearances while on
the ground have been unavilable. Now the airport is only 10 NM SE of
Ontario...so I'm guessing that my IFR departure off Flabob negatively
impacts their inbounds into ONT until they have identifed me on radar
or I'm through the MVA. I have suspected this is the funcamental I'm
not permitted a clearance and that until 2 years ago there may have
been a Letter of Agreement between ONT tower and SoCal departure that
permitted Flabob IFR departures. If so, am I not getting a raw deal
on "first come, first, served"?


The current SOCAL SOP specifies a procedure for clearances for two
airports without published departure procedures, Flabob and Perris
Valley. The RIR procedure is, "Cleared to (destination), enter
controlled airspace southwest of
Fla-Bob. When entering controlled airspace, proceed direct RAL VOR,
direct PDZ (remainder of route), maintain 4000' MSL, expect (filed or
TEC altitude) 10 minutes after departure." I can find nothing else
which mentions IFR departures from Flabob.



BTW, the FSDO guy was the least helpful: "No instrument departure, no
clearances on the ground." When I protested that this was clearly in
error he just repeated what he said, adding some impatient attitude.
That was the end of that conversation.


Your experience with FSDO is not unusual.

On Mar 2, 9:49 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:
On Mar 2, 9:53 am, wrote:





Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field
elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to
have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/
sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is
3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24
there are taller rocks to the North]. I heard from both the
controller and local pilots that zero-zero departures used to be
permitted until about 2 years ago and since then clearances while on
the ground have been unavilable. Now the airport is only 10 NM SE of
Ontario...so I'm guessing that my IFR departure off Flabob negatively
impacts their inbounds into ONT until they have identifed me on radar
or I'm through the MVA. I have suspected this is the funcamental I'm
not permitted a clearance and that until 2 years ago there may have
been a Letter of Agreement between ONT tower and SoCal departure that
permitted Flabob IFR departures. If so, am I not getting a raw deal
on "first come, first, served"?

The current SOCAL SOP specifies a procedure for clearances for two
airports without published departure procedures, Flabob and Perris
Valley. The RIR procedure is, "Cleared to (destination), enter
controlled airspace southwest of
Fla-Bob. When entering controlled airspace, proceed direct RAL VOR,
direct PDZ (remainder of route), maintain 4000' MSL, expect (filed or
TEC altitude) 10 minutes after departure." I can find nothing else
which mentions IFR departures from Flabob.



BTW, the FSDO guy was the least helpful: "No instrument departure, no
clearances on the ground." When I protested that this was clearly in
error he just repeated what he said, adding some impatient attitude.
That was the end of that conversation.

Your experience with FSDO is not unusual.

Steven:

Thanks. That makes sense and is what I would have expected. Is this
SOP publicly available? I guess now I just have to find out why they
won't issue it...

Alan