Clearance with an Odd Intersection

Ground based approaches would be be permitted this option per the
decision of one of the senior AT managers.

Should read "not be" rather than "be be"

Ground based approaches would be be permitted this option per the
decision of one of the senior AT managers.

Should read "not be" rather than "be be"

wrote in message ...

I wish I could be sent direct to MONDI, provided it is at a angle and
altitude
similar to a vector provided in accordance with 7110.65, 5-9-1.

And, the mighty chiefs at Air Traffic headquarters have been working on
such a
handbook provision, which may come out this year, but only for RNAV
approaches. Ground based approaches would be be permitted this option per
the
decision of one of the senior AT managers.

It is not a question of me being happy, it is a question of procedural
limits
that are established by FAA management (usually, but not always, with good
reason).


FAAO 7110.65 para 5-9-1. is not applicable to the situation under
discussion.

In article , Marco Leon wrote:
What does that have to do with what I wrote? You should understand your
clearance regardless if it's a reroute or not.

Regardless, I agree with your advice that one should know their entire
route
clearance before departure.

Flying in the NYC area (FRG) and you've never had an airborne reroute?

It's pretty hard to know your entire route before departure if they
bloody change it in the middle of your flight. Yeah, once you get
it, you should understand it. I'm just pointing out the impracticality
of always knowing it before departure.

First time that happened, I was coming from KORF (Norfolk, VA) and was
cleared as filed, V1 to JFK then direct KHPN. Halfway through the
flight, they rerouted me with a bunch of fixes and Victor airways in
a bunch of segments forming an arc around the The City.

Figuring this out on the fly is not optimal, but it happens.

I now make sure I have a highliter in easy reach, and discovered the
hard way, blue highlighters don't work at night (but that was another
trip).


Morris

Steven P. McNicoll opined

"Jose" wrote in message
. com...

So, you can't turn down a clearance until you know what it is, but you
can't know what it is until you know you've understood correctly, and you
can't know you've understood correctly until you've accepted the
clearance.

Hmmph.

If ATC gives me a new routing to copy, and I copy it and then a few
minutes later (after I check the charts) find it takes me sixty miles out
over the ocean, and then I lose comms making me unable to =negotiate= a
new clearance, I am =not= flying the one ATC attempted to con me into.
The same is true if I can't get a word in edgewise. Both circumstances
are common in the Northeast. Been there, done that, I'm not getting the
T-shirt soaking wet.


Perhaps it would be best if you stayed out of the IFR system.

Your previous comments were bad enough, but that is the stupidist comment I
have seen in a long time.

Given your attitude, the best answer to "ready to copy new clearence" is
"cannot comply".


-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

Which is you do not blindly accept a clearance without first studying
the reroute.
After studying the reroute, you must determine if it will adversely
affect your planning.(fuel, terrain, weather, safety, etc)
If you need more information, request it, but do not accept the
clearance until you have all the information you require.
I have gotten reroutes that would have taken me over a hundred miles off
my route. That would have added significant fuel consumption and
required a additional fuel stop.

Journeyman wrote:
It's pretty hard to know your entire route before departure if they
bloody change it in the middle of your flight. Yeah, once you get
it, you should understand it. I'm just pointing out the impracticality
of always knowing it before departure.
First time that happened, I was coming from KORF (Norfolk, VA) and was
cleared as filed, V1 to JFK then direct KHPN. Halfway through the
flight, they rerouted me with a bunch of fixes and Victor airways in
a bunch of segments forming an arc around the The City.
Figuring this out on the fly is not optimal, but it happens.
I now make sure I have a highliter in easy reach, and discovered the
hard way, blue highlighters don't work at night (but that was another
trip).

In article , Eric Rood wrote:
Which is you do not blindly accept a clearance without first studying
the reroute.

No argument there.

I've never had an "impossible" reroute, but the scenario goes,
ATC: "Amended clearance, advise ready to copy."
Me: "Ready"
ATC: "blahblahVictorThisblahIntersectionThat..."
Me: "blahblahSayAgainRest"
Them: "blahblah"
Me: "blabla"
Them: "No, Blah, then Blah"
Me: "okay, got it."

Then, I have to find it on the charts and quickly figure out whether
it makes any sense at all, while still maintaining the oily side down
and more or less on course to the next waypoint. This takes a couple
of minutes.

Much as we'd all prefer to figure out my route on the ground, this
happens occasionally while airborne. My only $0.02 to add to the
conversation.


Morris

Which is you do not blindly accept a clearance without first studying
the reroute.

No argument there.

I've never had an "impossible" reroute, but the scenario goes,
ATC: "Amended clearance, advise ready to copy."
Me: "Ready"
ATC: "blahblahVictorThisblahIntersectionThat..."
Me: "blahblahSayAgainRest"
Them: "blahblah"
Me: "blabla"
Them: "No, Blah, then Blah"
Me: "okay, got it."

Then, I have to find it on the charts and quickly figure out whether
it makes any sense at all, while still maintaining the oily side down
and more or less on course to the next waypoint. This takes a couple
of minutes.

After which you lose comms. Does ATC think you've already accepted the
clearance?

Jose
--
Math is a game. The object of the game is to figure out the rules.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:

Which is you do not blindly accept a clearance without first studying
the reroute.



No argument there.

I've never had an "impossible" reroute, but the scenario goes,
ATC: "Amended clearance, advise ready to copy."
Me: "Ready"
ATC: "blahblahVictorThisblahIntersectionThat..."
Me: "blahblahSayAgainRest"
Them: "blahblah"
Me: "blabla"
Them: "No, Blah, then Blah"
Me: "okay, got it."

Then, I have to find it on the charts and quickly figure out whether
it makes any sense at all, while still maintaining the oily side down
and more or less on course to the next waypoint. This takes a couple
of minutes.


After which you lose comms. Does ATC think you've already accepted the
clearance?

ATC gives you a clearance and you read it back. You have accepted it.

ATC gives you a clearance and you read it back. You have accepted it.

OK, so how do I acknowledge that I have heard and understood (correctly)
the clearance you have given me, but am NOT accepting it until I can
verify that it won't take me sixty miles out over the ocean?

Jose
--
Math is a game. The object of the game is to figure out the rules.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.