Towpilots ignoring turn signals

At 18:11 30 April 2015, Gav Goudie wrote:
With their permission I will gladly give you the contact details of a
least 2
tow pilots who have experienced just such a thing (unless it was their
imagination of course...)

GG

At 14:55 30 April 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
It's perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering informatio
to a
=
tow plane through positioning, without causing any sort of divergent
situat=
ion. There is no significant danger of flick rolls (at least with a
200'
r=
ope and any tow plane in my experience), that's just someone'
imagination
=
running wild.


Ok, I do fly in the UK. In 50 years of gliding this is the first I have
heard of this "technique". It is certainly never taught and as far as I am
aware, never ever condoned. I can say that if a pilot on my club tried it
he would receive counselling and told never to do it ever again. Tug upsets
are thankfully rare in the UK and I am beginning to understand why they are
not so rare elsewhere. Attempting to control an aircraft from outside,
against the will of the pilot is nothing short of crazy but each to his own
I suppose.
In answer to the question, if the tug is going somewhere I am not happy to
go I would seize the yellow knob and pull. It may well be that after we
both landed a discussion takes place but that is where such problems should
be sorted, on the ground. Bit of a moot point as where I fly both tugs and
gliders have radio and in my particular situation if the radio is U/s the
aircraft is U/s.
Just because a procedure is sanctioned by an organisation does not make it
safe, it can just mean that enough crazy people have decided to do it.
Of course it is perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering
information to a tow plane, being possible does not make it wise or safe.
On cloud flying I would tend to agree with you, but in that case you are
only putting at risk yourself and perhaps anyone else who chooses to be in
the same cloud, and that is not going to be me in any event.
A very good mate of mine told me very early on in my gliding career that
the biggest danger a tug pilot faced was the glider pilot flying behind
him. He was right and proved it in the saddest way possible. Being out of
position puts the tug pilot at risk, the glider pilot almost always gets
away with it.

Sorry Don, I can't disagree with more. I've given thousands of tows, most of them with students in the glider doing boxing the wake, high/low tow position and steering turns and have never once experienced or heard of any tow plane upsets. The only incidences I have heard of have been gliders getting to high on the tow plane during takeoff or not getting off tow when signaled do to engine failure etc. I believe this training makes for much better glider pilots on tow.
Can you cite on accident attributable to steering turns?


On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 1:15:06 PM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 18:11 30 April 2015, Gav Goudie wrote:
With their permission I will gladly give you the contact details of a
least 2
tow pilots who have experienced just such a thing (unless it was their
imagination of course...)

GG

At 14:55 30 April 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
It's perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering informatio
to a
=
tow plane through positioning, without causing any sort of divergent
situat=
ion. There is no significant danger of flick rolls (at least with a
200'
r=
ope and any tow plane in my experience), that's just someone'
imagination
=
running wild.


Ok, I do fly in the UK. In 50 years of gliding this is the first I have
heard of this "technique". It is certainly never taught and as far as I am
aware, never ever condoned. I can say that if a pilot on my club tried it
he would receive counselling and told never to do it ever again. Tug upsets
are thankfully rare in the UK and I am beginning to understand why they are
not so rare elsewhere. Attempting to control an aircraft from outside,
against the will of the pilot is nothing short of crazy but each to his own
I suppose.
In answer to the question, if the tug is going somewhere I am not happy to
go I would seize the yellow knob and pull. It may well be that after we
both landed a discussion takes place but that is where such problems should
be sorted, on the ground. Bit of a moot point as where I fly both tugs and
gliders have radio and in my particular situation if the radio is U/s the
aircraft is U/s.
Just because a procedure is sanctioned by an organisation does not make it
safe, it can just mean that enough crazy people have decided to do it.
Of course it is perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering
information to a tow plane, being possible does not make it wise or safe.
On cloud flying I would tend to agree with you, but in that case you are
only putting at risk yourself and perhaps anyone else who chooses to be in
the same cloud, and that is not going to be me in any event.
A very good mate of mine told me very early on in my gliding career that
the biggest danger a tug pilot faced was the glider pilot flying behind
him. He was right and proved it in the saddest way possible. Being out of
position puts the tug pilot at risk, the glider pilot almost always gets
away with it.

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 4:15:06 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:

....snip...
Attempting to control an aircraft from outside,
against the will of the pilot is nothing short of crazy but each to his own
I suppose.
....snip...

My joking comment (about running out of rudder) at the beginning of the thread aside, you seem to have picked up an incorrect idea about how this SIGNAL is supposed to work.

The glider pilot will position themselves just outside of the tow plane's wingtip. Just about where you would box the wake. Then the tow plane's pilot is supposed to notice this and turn in the direction away from the glider.. When the glider moves back to center, then the tow plane straightens out..

It is not "against the will of the pilot" it is communication, without the radio.

Todd Smith
3S

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 1:15:06 PM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 18:11 30 April 2015, Gav Goudie wrote:
With their permission I will gladly give you the contact details of a
least 2
tow pilots who have experienced just such a thing (unless it was their
imagination of course...)

GG

At 14:55 30 April 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
It's perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering informatio
to a
=
tow plane through positioning, without causing any sort of divergent
situat=
ion. There is no significant danger of flick rolls (at least with a
200'
r=
ope and any tow plane in my experience), that's just someone'
imagination
=
running wild.


Ok, I do fly in the UK. In 50 years of gliding this is the first I have
heard of this "technique". It is certainly never taught and as far as I am
aware, never ever condoned. I can say that if a pilot on my club tried it
he would receive counselling and told never to do it ever again. Tug upsets
are thankfully rare in the UK and I am beginning to understand why they are
not so rare elsewhere. Attempting to control an aircraft from outside,
against the will of the pilot is nothing short of crazy but each to his own
I suppose.
In answer to the question, if the tug is going somewhere I am not happy to
go I would seize the yellow knob and pull. It may well be that after we
both landed a discussion takes place but that is where such problems should
be sorted, on the ground. Bit of a moot point as where I fly both tugs and
gliders have radio and in my particular situation if the radio is U/s the
aircraft is U/s.
Just because a procedure is sanctioned by an organisation does not make it
safe, it can just mean that enough crazy people have decided to do it.
Of course it is perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering
information to a tow plane, being possible does not make it wise or safe.
On cloud flying I would tend to agree with you, but in that case you are
only putting at risk yourself and perhaps anyone else who chooses to be in
the same cloud, and that is not going to be me in any event.
A very good mate of mine told me very early on in my gliding career that
the biggest danger a tug pilot faced was the glider pilot flying behind
him. He was right and proved it in the saddest way possible. Being out of
position puts the tug pilot at risk, the glider pilot almost always gets
away with it.

No one is actually controlling the tow plane, it is a signal!!
You dont need to move further to the right than when boxing the wake.
I guess you also never heard about boxing the wake...
Sigh...

Ramy

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 4:41:15 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

No one is actually controlling the tow plane, it is a signal!!
You dont need to move further to the right than when boxing the wake.

Well...kinda depends on how good the tow plane's mirrors are. Sometimes, it can be real hard to see where the glider has gone! But when the slip ball starts to slide over, it's pretty obvious that a turn is being directed!

As long as everything is done smoothly, it will be pretty obvious to the tuggie that a turn is in order.

And it's kinda fun, actually...at both ends of the string.

Kirk
Just a wild and crazy guy! (and a Steve Martin fan)

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 10:51:55 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
So, I was getting my first tow at a very busy and very well-respected gliderport, and I saw an area where I wanted to go, so I shift a plane's width opposite the turn direction and stayed there. The tow pilot kept going straight ahead. OK, maybe he didn't see me, or maybe like a fishing guide he is taking me to a secret spot with 10kts of lift.

Next day, different tow pilot, similar turn request, no response. When I asked the second tow pilot back on the ground, he says he didn't notice it.. They never pay attention to the position of the gliders because the glider pilots don't know how to stay on tow, and deviations are just an example of their poor flying habits.

Steering turns were taught to me at this place and this is on there web site. I'm surprised you old timers have not chimed in.
From Sky Sailing webpage:
http://www.skysailing.com/pages/signals1.htm

GLIDER SIGNALS:
Move to left/right, line up tail wheel to main of towplane = steering turn (note: you must remain in that position until you want the tug to go straight, use coordinated turns to get into position, DO NOT just rudder out)

I trained in the UK in 1977. We were taught how to steer the tow plane. I've only needed/tried to steer the tow plane to better looking sky a couple of times in the UK and a couple of times in the US. One of US tow pilots seemed clueless, otherwise it worked fine.

I once had a release failure in the UK. Open Cirrus "B". I flew abeam left and rocked the wings three times. No response at all from the tow pilot. The release finally let go. I had landed at one UK site and needed a cast-iron thermal to get to home plate. Got there okay and had the CG tow hook replaced before flying the Cirrus again.

Released once in anger when the tow pilot gave the wing rock. Out of fuel. 180 return from 200ft. Proper apology for departing without fuel.

Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes not.

Frank Whiteley

"Attempting to steer the towplane by pulling his tail around is just dumb. "

As a tow pilot, I expect the glider to pull my tail around and steer me to where he/she wants to go if they are not happy with my choice. I think Dave's response is just dumb. Obviously a radio call is the first choice for re-directing me.

As a tow pilot, I have no problem letting the glider steer me.

As a glider pilot, I have no problem giving the tow pilot directional suggestions. However, If the tow pilot is unresponsive to my suggestions, I don't push the envelope much past the normal wake boxing position.
That would be stupid.

Once a glider pilot tried to steer me toward a bank of clouds at our current altitude, and I refused. He was frustrated I guess, because he yanked my tail in the same direction a second time, as if forgetting to release the rope. The tow was an instructional flight and the instructor was attempting to demonstrate steering. He could have easily gone the other way, which was clear of clouds. So, I terminated the tow.
See ya...

The practice isn't inherently dangerous, done correctly. Some pilots don't.
Jim.

Jim,

Did you wave him off or drop the rope? Ropes and rings are expensive!

On 5/1/2015 7:08 AM, Jim David wrote:
As a tow pilot, I have no problem letting the glider steer me.

As a glider pilot, I have no problem giving the tow pilot directional suggestions. However, If the tow pilot is unresponsive to my suggestions, I don't push the envelope much past the normal wake boxing position.
That would be stupid.

Once a glider pilot tried to steer me toward a bank of clouds at our current altitude, and I refused. He was frustrated I guess, because he yanked my tail in the same direction a second time, as if forgetting to release the rope. The tow was an instructional flight and the instructor was attempting to demonstrate steering. He could have easily gone the other way, which was clear of clouds. So, I terminated the tow.
See ya...

The practice isn't inherently dangerous, done correctly. Some pilots don't.
Jim.



--
Dan Marotta