Lessons learned from the Oregon tragedy

...and he was an uber-geek...editor of an online technical magazine. Can't
imagine why he didn't have a GPS. Mine would have nagged me as soon as I
missed the turn off of the freeway, and led me onto the correct road.

Bob Gardner

"kontiki" wrote in message
...
Montblack wrote:
("john smith" wrote)

Mr Kim's death resulting from his decision to attempt to walk out of an
area he was unfamiliar with after becoming stranded, raises some thought
provoking questions for aviators.



One of his problems was thinking he was 'here,' when in fact he was
...there.

Many of his subsequent decisions were based on that first wrong premise.

perhaps something as simple as a hand held GPS could have saved him. Or,
even a hand held radio.

Most pilots carry these items with them as a matter of course.

Lesson learned from a bush pilot: Get into the airplane prepared to walk
home.

Bob Gardner

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...
Basic gear, whether driving or flying...
warm, clothes and boots, Gore-Tex, Thinsulate, warm hat and
a balaclava. Bright colors, blaze orange. A change of
socks. Signal mirror, matches and a Zippo lighter even if
you don't smoke.
Some tools, a folding shovel, a pocket knife, a small
hatchet.
Some high energy food stuff, jerky. Water, take some fresh
liter bottles, if it is below freezing, put the unfrozen
bottles inside your coat and your body will keep them
liquid.
Stay dry, stay out of the wind, stay dry.
In a car, run the engine only 10 minutes out of every hour,
use blankets to add insulation inside the car and cover the
windows at night. Buy a bright colored car.

Have flares and smoke. Tell somebody where you plan to go
and a call-in schedule so the searchers can start looking.

Cotton clothes get wet and don't dry quickly. Wool and
modern synthetics are warmer even when wet/damp.

See sportsman's catalogs such as Cabela's www.cabelas.com
and mountain sports catalogs www.rei.com and stay dry.

There is a story I read, probably 40 years ago, about a
northern Minnesota resident who lived 30 miles from town.
Monthly he would take his snowmobile and sleds to town to
buy supplies. One day his snowmobile broke down and he
tried to fix it but could not. By that time he was very
cold, temperatures were below zero F and win chills were
lower still. He tried to light a fire, but the wood he
could find was wet. He did have thousands of wooden matches
since he had just bought a big supply. Bit he couldn't get
the fire started. A day or two later the searchers found
his body and saw all the attempts to start a fire that had
failed.

He was so cold by the time he started to think about
survival shelter and a fire he couldn't think and didn't use
the 50 gallons of kerosene, or the gasoline he had on the
sled and in the snowmobile.

First thing, shelter, second start a fire while you're still
warm and can think. Improve your shelter. Stay dry.





"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
| perhaps something as simple as a hand held GPS could have
saved him. Or,
| even a hand held radio.
|
| It went well beyond that. Mr. Kim drove his family into
mountainous
| country, above the snow line, wearing tennis shoes and
light clothing.
| His chances of hiking out were almost nil.
|
| I know he wasn't expecting to take a wrong turn, and I
know he wasn't
| expecting to get stuck in the snow, and I know he wasn't
from that part
| of the country -- but the unfortunate Mr. Kim apparently
did not take
| even the most basic precautions.
|
| We keep a giant Tupperware container of survival gear in
each of our
| vehicles. In that kit is warm clothing, some food,
chemical hand/feet
| warmers jumper cables, flash lights, tools -- the basic
survival stuff.
| We have an even more extensive kit in our airplane,
knowing that the
| *average* time from crash to rescue is 18 hours in the
United States --
| plenty long to die of exposure in the Midwest.
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|

Over water, life jackets and a raft, water temps below 80
degrees, an exposure suit.
Desert hot weather, lots of water, reflective "space
blankets" for shade, proper shoes.
Cold weather, clothes designed to keep you dry and warm,
boots, warm hat, gloves, food, water, pre-planning.


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
. ..
| Lesson learned from a bush pilot: Get into the airplane
prepared to walk
| home.
|
| Bob Gardner
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
| Basic gear, whether driving or flying...
| warm, clothes and boots, Gore-Tex, Thinsulate, warm hat
and
| a balaclava. Bright colors, blaze orange. A change of
| socks. Signal mirror, matches and a Zippo lighter even
if
| you don't smoke.
| Some tools, a folding shovel, a pocket knife, a small
| hatchet.
| Some high energy food stuff, jerky. Water, take some
fresh
| liter bottles, if it is below freezing, put the unfrozen
| bottles inside your coat and your body will keep them
| liquid.
| Stay dry, stay out of the wind, stay dry.
| In a car, run the engine only 10 minutes out of every
hour,
| use blankets to add insulation inside the car and cover
the
| windows at night. Buy a bright colored car.
|
| Have flares and smoke. Tell somebody where you plan to
go
| and a call-in schedule so the searchers can start
looking.
|
| Cotton clothes get wet and don't dry quickly. Wool and
| modern synthetics are warmer even when wet/damp.
|
| See sportsman's catalogs such as Cabela's
www.cabelas.com
| and mountain sports catalogs www.rei.com and stay dry.
|
| There is a story I read, probably 40 years ago, about a
| northern Minnesota resident who lived 30 miles from
town.
| Monthly he would take his snowmobile and sleds to town
to
| buy supplies. One day his snowmobile broke down and he
| tried to fix it but could not. By that time he was very
| cold, temperatures were below zero F and win chills were
| lower still. He tried to light a fire, but the wood he
| could find was wet. He did have thousands of wooden
matches
| since he had just bought a big supply. Bit he couldn't
get
| the fire started. A day or two later the searchers
found
| his body and saw all the attempts to start a fire that
had
| failed.
|
| He was so cold by the time he started to think about
| survival shelter and a fire he couldn't think and didn't
use
| the 50 gallons of kerosene, or the gasoline he had on
the
| sled and in the snowmobile.
|
| First thing, shelter, second start a fire while you're
still
| warm and can think. Improve your shelter. Stay dry.
|
|
|
|
|
| "Jay Honeck" wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| | perhaps something as simple as a hand held GPS could
have
| saved him. Or,
| | even a hand held radio.
| |
| | It went well beyond that. Mr. Kim drove his family
into
| mountainous
| | country, above the snow line, wearing tennis shoes and
| light clothing.
| | His chances of hiking out were almost nil.
| |
| | I know he wasn't expecting to take a wrong turn, and I
| know he wasn't
| | expecting to get stuck in the snow, and I know he
wasn't
| from that part
| | of the country -- but the unfortunate Mr. Kim
apparently
| did not take
| | even the most basic precautions.
| |
| | We keep a giant Tupperware container of survival gear
in
| each of our
| | vehicles. In that kit is warm clothing, some food,
| chemical hand/feet
| | warmers jumper cables, flash lights, tools -- the
basic
| survival stuff.
| | We have an even more extensive kit in our airplane,
| knowing that the
| | *average* time from crash to rescue is 18 hours in the
| United States --
| | plenty long to die of exposure in the Midwest.
| | --
| | Jay Honeck
| | Iowa City, IA
| | Pathfinder N56993
| | www.AlexisParkInn.com
| | "Your Aviation Destination"
| |
|
|
|
|

Mxsmanic wrote:

Richard Riley writes:

And the dirt road is listed as a primary on automotive GPS systems.

Hmm ... does this mean that the maker of the map for the GPS systems
may be liable?

And the driver could not look outside to see that he was not a
suitable road? We need to spend less time trying to make someone
liable other than the person who made the mistake.

Ron Lee

Jim Macklin wrote:
That was the smartest thing they did. Tire smoke is very
dark and easy to see in the day time with high clouds, not
much good at night or in snow. Neither are flares, but like
having extra keys, planning for the emergency may make it
not happen.

His worst decision was to try to walk out. On any road, the
searchers would have a better chance to see the car. The
car was some shelter and that applies to an airplane too.
Stay with the crash/landing site. Lay out markers.

I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I could follow it
for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die trying than die
sitting waiting on someone who may never come.


Matt

Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied survival
and always have some minimum supplies, so walking out might
be an option, but sitting it out with the supplies when a
flight plan has been filed and S&R was known to be coming is
the best option.
But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they
close to the route they should have been on? His body
warmth in the car, a group huddle is warmer than just the
mother and two small children.

The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast
fed her children, but that would materially shorten her life
due to the use of water and calories.

It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and
blankets in stuff sacks, they take very little room and are
very warm. Some survival foods, jerky, canned milk, water,
maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit, even a small cooler
with food for the trip would have made a difference.
Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every state
has a road department or police that will tell you about
road closings and weather. The things that they could have
done before hand is a long list, any one or two might have
made the difference.

A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that
they call out the police if you don't call them by 10 PM
tonight would get S&R looking. Haven't checked, but auto
clubs and car rental agencies could offer "drive plans" as a
service.


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| That was the smartest thing they did. Tire smoke is
very
| dark and easy to see in the day time with high clouds,
not
| much good at night or in snow. Neither are flares, but
like
| having extra keys, planning for the emergency may make
it
| not happen.
|
| His worst decision was to try to walk out. On any road,
the
| searchers would have a better chance to see the car.
The
| car was some shelter and that applies to an airplane
too.
| Stay with the crash/landing site. Lay out markers.
|
| I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I
could follow it
| for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die
trying than die
| sitting waiting on someone who may never come.
|
|
| Matt

On 12/9/06 6:58 AM, in article , "kontiki"
wrote:

Montblack wrote:
("john smith" wrote)

Mr Kim's death resulting from his decision to attempt to walk out of an
area he was unfamiliar with after becoming stranded, raises some thought
provoking questions for aviators.



One of his problems was thinking he was 'here,' when in fact he was
...there.

Many of his subsequent decisions were based on that first wrong premise.

perhaps something as simple as a hand held GPS could have saved him. Or,
even a hand held radio.

Most pilots carry these items with them as a matter of course.

You're the first person besides myself to mention this. The guy was a tech
geek, with not even a cheap, handheld GPS, let alone one with street maps?
My Lowrance 2000c in driving mode was much more informative than our paper
map during our last vacation.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

"Jim Macklin" writes:

The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast
fed her children, but that would materially shorten her life
due to the use of water and calories.

There was snow, which could be melted (presumably) to provide fresh
water. People can go without food for quite a while, easily two
weeks. Very young children should be fed when possible, but breast
milk provides everything required for that, and the mom can easily
afford the loss of calories over short periods (days, two weeks,
etc.).

It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and
blankets in stuff sacks, they take very little room and are
very warm.

I thought I read they were going to get a Christmas tree. If so, they
really should have taken more gear and food, just in case.

A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that
they call out the police if you don't call them by 10 PM
tonight would get S&R looking. Haven't checked, but auto
clubs and car rental agencies could offer "drive plans" as a
service.

Sounds a lot like a flight plan. But a lot of pilots don't bother to
file flight plans, either.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

But how did he end up in the river?

For sure, I'd have walked down the road.

Karl

Jim Macklin wrote:

Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied survival
and always have some minimum supplies, so walking out might
be an option, but sitting it out with the supplies when a
flight plan has been filed and S&R was known to be coming is
the best option.
But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they
close to the route they should have been on? His body
warmth in the car, a group huddle is warmer than just the
mother and two small children.

The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast
fed her children, but that would materially shorten her life
due to the use of water and calories.

It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and
blankets in stuff sacks, they take very little room and are
very warm. Some survival foods, jerky, canned milk, water,
maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit, even a small cooler
with food for the trip would have made a difference.
Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every state
has a road department or police that will tell you about
road closings and weather. The things that they could have
done before hand is a long list, any one or two might have
made the difference.

A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that
they call out the police if you don't call them by 10 PM
tonight would get S&R looking. Haven't checked, but auto
clubs and car rental agencies could offer "drive plans" as a
service.

Yes, all are things that should have been done. However, I still am not
convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the vehicle is correct.
With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily walk 10 miles a
day in pretty rough terrain (I do it hunting most every year) and I can
walk 50 miles a day on roads or level terrain. If I was less than 50
miles from civilization, I think I have a good chance of getting help
faster than waiting for rescue, especially in a case like this where
nobody knows where I am.

I agree that if it is likely that someone knows where you are and that
you are overdue, then staying with the vehicle makes a lot of sense.
The trouble with general advice is that it often is useless
specifically. :-)


Matt