ORCA lower than MEA?

Sam Spade wrote:



Now, with RNAV-direct common, you have to fly at, or above, the Center's
MIA at a VFR altitude.

No.

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:46:49 -0700, Newps wrote:



Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



I've not flown extensively in mountainous areas. Are there really many
airways with MEA's below the minimum 91.177 IFR altitudes for flight?

Or are you saying that ATC would not grant the clearance because of radar
coverage/MIA/MVA issues?


We have lots of airways whose MEA's are well below the peaks of the
mountains, 4-5000 feet below. A lot of airways zig zag to get into the
low areas or passes between mountains. Some just go right over the top.
As for OTP we don't care about radar coverage. We use OTP everyday
here, more in the winter than the summer. We don't care what altitude
you go at. MVA/MIA is also irrelavant for OTP ops.


That's what I thought.

When you write about airways below the peaks -- obviously there are many of
those. But what I wondered, specifically, if there were MEA's lower than
the 91.177 minimum required IFR altitude (2,000' above the highest
obstruction within four miles of your flight path).

So far as the requiremnt (for pilots) for VFR altitudes, that would only
apply at 3000' or more AGL. So would probably not be applicable here.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 06:24:32 -0800, Sam Spade wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:


I've not flown extensively in mountainous areas. Are there really many
airways with MEA's below the minimum 91.177 IFR altitudes for flight?

There used to be only one choice for On Top. Fly a Victor Airway at a
compliant VFR altitude, and not less than the MEA. Since MEAs are
almost always at X-thousand, you have to fly higher than that to be at a
VFR altitude.

Now, with RNAV-direct common, you have to fly at, or above, the Center's
MIA at a VFR altitude. This, of course, provided the controller will
give you the MIA. ;-)

As to you providing your own 91.177 altitude that just won't work in
controlled airspace if it is lower than the MIA.

Or are you saying that ATC would not grant the clearance because of radar
coverage/MIA/MVA issues?

MIA issues and often radar coverage.


It seems to me I heard of OTP flights at low altitudes well before GPS/RNAV
was common.

So far as the Victor Airway is concerned, my understanding is that it does
not officially exist below the MEA.

So far as VFR cruising altitudes are concerned, if one is below the MEA,
that may or may not apply, depending on AGL altitude.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:


When you write about airways below the peaks -- obviously there are many of
those. But what I wondered, specifically, if there were MEA's lower than
the 91.177 minimum required IFR altitude (2,000' above the highest
obstruction within four miles of your flight path).



No, the MEA would follow the 2000 foot rule over the valley floor.



So far as the requiremnt (for pilots) for VFR altitudes, that would only
apply at 3000' or more AGL. So would probably not be applicable here.

Required altitudes for pilots flying OTP are the pilots problem. I
simply don't care.

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:


So far as the Victor Airway is concerned, my understanding is that it does
not officially exist below the MEA.

It does insofar as you can be cleared on the airway, OTP, and you choose
to be below the MEA.

Newps wrote:



Sam Spade wrote:


Some folks like to know independent of the reassuring voice of Mr.
Goodscope that the IFR altitude in use is actually safe. There are
dead pilots that could have benefited greatly had they had that
information.




They are not dead because the MVA/MIA altitude was bad. That has never
happened.

No disgreement here, although MVAs and MIAs have been found in some
cases not to comply with the FAA's own criteria.

In fact, if the MVAs or MIAs were in fatal error, then the pilot would
have no use for that data, would he.

The pilots would not have died had they had some form of MVA awareness
to tell them their position and altitude assignment (or what they
thought was an altitude assignment) placed them below the MVA (or MIA).

Newps wrote:



Sam Spade wrote:



Now, with RNAV-direct common, you have to fly at, or above, the
Center's MIA at a VFR altitude.


No.



Oh? Please enlighten me.

Newps wrote:



Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



I've not flown extensively in mountainous areas. Are there really many
airways with MEA's below the minimum 91.177 IFR altitudes for flight?

Or are you saying that ATC would not grant the clearance because of radar
coverage/MIA/MVA issues?



We have lots of airways whose MEA's are well below the peaks of the
mountains, 4-5000 feet below. A lot of airways zig zag to get into the
low areas or passes between mountains. Some just go right over the top.
As for OTP we don't care about radar coverage. We use OTP everyday
here, more in the winter than the summer. We don't care what altitude
you go at. MVA/MIA is also irrelavant for OTP ops.


You may not care, but that doesn't change the position of FAA
headquarters (note "minimum IFR altitudes in No 3).

From the AIM:

e. When operating in VFR conditions with an ATC authorization to
“maintain VFR-on-top/maintain VFR conditions” pilots on IFR flight plans
must:

1. Fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section
91.159.

2. Comply with the VFR visibility and distance from cloud criteria in 14
CFR Section 91.155 (Basic VFR Weather Minimums).

3. Comply with instrument flight rules that are applicable to this
flight; i.e., minimum IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio
communications, course to be flown, adherence to ATC clearance, etc.

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:46:49 -0700, Newps wrote:



Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



I've not flown extensively in mountainous areas. Are there really many
airways with MEA's below the minimum 91.177 IFR altitudes for flight?

Or are you saying that ATC would not grant the clearance because of radar
coverage/MIA/MVA issues?


We have lots of airways whose MEA's are well below the peaks of the
mountains, 4-5000 feet below. A lot of airways zig zag to get into the
low areas or passes between mountains. Some just go right over the top.
As for OTP we don't care about radar coverage. We use OTP everyday
here, more in the winter than the summer. We don't care what altitude
you go at. MVA/MIA is also irrelavant for OTP ops.



That's what I thought.

Both of you need to read the AIM 4-4-7. It doesn't say, "Unless
otherwise authorized by ATC." ;-)

Newps wrote:


Required altitudes for pilots flying OTP are the pilots problem. I
simply don't care.



That sums it up. In the final analysis, it is the pilots' responsiblity
to obey FARs and directive information in the AIM.