Busting airspace question

Sylvain writes:

Pretty much the same way busting a traffic law
right under a police officer's nose does it.
Besides they do keep a record as well.

Think like a lawyer. Radar provides position and distance, but that
is all. To determine whether or not a pilot has entered Class B
without authorization, you also need a way to determine the boundaries
of that airspace, something that radar does not provide. And you must
show that all the information available to the pilot specified the
same limits as whatever source was used by ATC. If there is a
discrepancy, and the pilot's information shows that he was clear of
the airspace, the pilot is in the clear. If ATC told him he was
inside the airspace, then there is a conflict, and much depends on
exactly how large the error was. If the chart shows him indisputably
outside the airspace but ATC insists otherwise, the pilot, as pilot in
command, can ignore what ATC says for safety reasons, based on the
assumption that the controller is incompetent or is deliberately
misleading the pilot.

There are many possible scenarios, only some of which favor ATC.

--
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Alan Gerber writes:

It doesn't absolve you. It increases the odds that you won't enter the
airspace inadvertantly, and there's a chance they'll clear you without you
even asking for it. (And, for class C, you're already talking with them,
so there's no violation.)

While flight following is not an automatic clearance into controlled
airspace, a controller who was providing flight following and failed
to mention a potential unauthorized intrusion into controlled airspace
could be held to not be doing his duty. The pilot would not be
relieved of his responsibility (he's supposed to know for himself that
he is entering Class B), but the controller would seem negligent if he
failed to bring up something this important.

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"NW_Pilot" wrote in message
news

Yea, I agree 30 days of no flying or pay an attorney thousands of dollars
take time to go to court etc.? I'd take the 30 days!

If I were in your shoes, I'd consider hiring a lawyer. I fly for fun. You
fly for money.

Robert Chambers wrote:
So fly to a non towered airport, do a low approach, turn off the
transponder and fly home at treetop level. Make sure you put your foil
helmet on and watch out for black helicopters.


You forgot the colored duct tape for "pick your own" N-numbers. G

Alan Gerber wrote:

On my first cross-country solo, the controller cleared me into the Bravo
without me asking for it. (My home airport is underneath the shelf.)

I didn't actually enter the Bravo, since I was a student at the time, but
this is an example of the controller helping you. :-)

... Alan

Exactly!

I've had that happen many times heading through NYC. As I'm flying
across Long Island Sound on VFR flight following, as I'm preparing to
ask, I get "58S cleared to enter Bravo airspace". If I'm headed through
to the south, they'll also often vector me to the Colts Neck VOR,
straight over JFK.

Without FF, you're calling up and asking for clearance out of the blue.

With FF, they've already got an idea where you're headed, you've already
got a code, they expect you to ask for clearance, and I think it makes
their job that much easier.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder writes:

Radar

How does radar prove it?

While I fully beleive you are stupid. I don't for a second beleive you are
THAT stupid.

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

While I fully beleive you are stupid. I don't for a second beleive you are
THAT stupid.

I've explained the legal ramifications in a previous post. Radar
shows your position and distance but cannot be used by itself to
determine whether or not you are in a given airspace. For that, you
need some other additional reference.

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Mxsmanic wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder writes:

While I fully beleive you are stupid. I don't for a second beleive
you are THAT stupid.

I've explained the legal ramifications in a previous post. Radar
shows your position and distance but cannot be used by itself to
determine whether or not you are in a given airspace. For that, you
need some other additional reference.

You explained how you thought it would work out. In the real world the data
the FAA gives the FAA proves to the FAA what the circumstances were. The
burden of proof then shifts to the pilot. And about half of the things the
pilot could bring up might to explain the error would get him in just as
much trouble as busting the airspace. i.e. Something wrong with the
equipment in his aircraft.

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:33:49 -0800, C J Campbell wrote:

If the FAA finds
that the instructor was negligent in teaching his student, then they may take
any action from warning him to taking away his certificates.

That would explain why my normally composed instructor became nervous as we
got underneath a Class B ring.

--
Dallas

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:57:28 -0800, C J Campbell wrote:

My bald head is
already plenty reflective enough.

Gosh, I'm not sure that's enough.

Best to be safe and check the AFDB site:
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

--
Dallas