Didn't know that....

wrote in message
...
On Jan 21, 12:18 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
:



On Jan 20, 3:51 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:28:27 -0800 (PST), wrote:
Where on the checklist is the instruction to flip this switch?

The manual states:

At 2000 ft

CABIN PRESS MODE SEL.............................Check AUTO
ENG 1 & 2 BLEED, APU BLEED.......................OFF
P/B DITCHING.....................................ON
P/A............................................."TOU CHDOWN IN ONE
MINUTE" Aim for an impact with an 11° body angle and minimum ROD.

Poster

However if you're also working an inflight engine unstart which takes
precedence? Clarification: two engine unstart w/inflight emergency.
Quite a bit different from a situation that begins at cruise altitude
or with only *one* emergency rather than a sequence of events. As a
PAX I would rather know that the crew are concentrating on landing the
aircraft (ditching) as gently as possible.

That silly switch won't do a thing to save the buoyancy if the
fuselage is fractured by a rough ditching...a point one everyone seems
to miss.

Exactly.

I would hazard (grin) a guess that the final review will show them to
have maintained situational awareness with the concomitant priority
management.

I'd agree, it;'s hard to argue wiht success. Like many accidents of this
sort, these gusy will have rewritten the book.

Bertie

With all my arguments against worrying about the dip, er, 'ditch'
switch I wonder of what benefit it would truly be in any condition
other dead level calm? Ditching at see would (I would think) most
often occur in conditions that would tear up the aircraft sufficiently
to make 'the Switch' totally useless.

In this particular case it appears, from reading an article early on,
that one or more pax may have partially opened a rear door and allowed
water ingress and this, more than anything, contributed to the tail
down sinking.

It all comes down to basic necessities. I've had two high speed
parachute malfunctions and my first reaction was "what do I do to get
a chute open right f'ing now?" I didn't worry until after that
occurred as to wear I would land or what I would have for dinner. You
really have to experience something to realize the difference a 'real'
emergency will make in your focus. Failure to maintain that focus
results in the 'oh ****' moments.

-------------------------------------------

Nice fantasy........

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
wrote in
:

On Jan 21, 12:09 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Flydive wrote :

wrote:

Low priority compared to flying the plane, deadstick, in a
congested urban environment.

Or would you rather he spend time looking for a button on the
panel?

Well it takes 3 seconds to flip the switch, you should know where
is located.

one pilot is flying the aircraft, the other one is assisting and
going through the checklist.

Yep, and the checklists can lead you into a workd of trouble. There
wasn'
t
time. In this case, a relight checklist was really all they should
have been interested in.

Bertie

I'll bet they had it open to 'foie gras' - goose liver ala Turbine.


hehe
Smells like hell when it goes down the core. They prolly didn;'t get to
smell it since it sounds like the engines stopped producing air for the
packs almost immediatly



Bertie


oh yeah,,prolly,, yeah

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Flydive wrote in :

wrote:
On Jan 20, 10:11 am, Flydive wrote:
wrote:

Low priority compared to flying the plane, deadstick, in a
congested
urban environment.
Or would you rather he spend time looking for a button on the
panel?
Well it takes 3 seconds to flip the switch, you should know where is
located.

one pilot is flying the aircraft, the other one is assisting and
going
through the checklist.
Yep.

Where on the checklist is the instruction to flip this switch?

One may assume that since it was not flipped it was not at the top of
the list and thus was of a lower priority. Flying the airplane and
only those steps necessary to (1) avoid obstacles while (2) setting
up
for landing are of high(est) priority.
The ditch switch is at the top of the ditching checklist and usually
is
a memory item, if you are going to ditch I would say is a priority
item.


Only if you have time. Ditchig checklists don't have any memory items at
all, and in fact Bus checklists, with most airlines, have very few
memory drills. Lkikely the only memory checks are the engine fire drill
and a pressurisations blowout, and those would have only the initial
itiems on them.


Well, maybe the Airbus checklist doesn't have memory items, mine does,
the ditch switch is one of them. Other aircraft probably do too


Airliners have 2 pilots and usually only one of them is handling the
controls, the other one takes care of the emergency and assists the
flying pilot. You say setting up for landing, well if you are
"landing"

No, you tell him to do what you need him to do in the circumstance. In
this case, the non handler was probably try to relight and telling the
cabin and ATC waht was happening.

They just had multiple bird strikes, with most probably catastrophic
engine failure, I don't think you are going to try a relight in that
situation. I believe they did not communicate much with ATC, and that
task can be done by the flying pilot, no much overload to push the PTT
and say "we are going into the Hudson" as it seems they said. What part
of assisting does not agree with "you tell him to do what you need him
to do in the circumstance"?


in water the water, prepare the aircraft for ditching is part of it, a
priority.

Nope, not in this case. if they didn;t fly the airplane, the holes in
the bottom of the airplane would have been the least of their problems,
since they would have made significantly larger holes.


Bertie

One of them was handling the aircraft and did a great job, the assisting
pilot was assisting and following the checklist, you just have to pick
the correct one.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


There were dozens of things he would be doing. One, determining waht the
problem was.
Then, dealing with the immediate problem, an engine failure. Immediate
relight attempt. Probably the APU was fired up to assist in the relight.
as they would have been too slow for a windmill start.
Then a quick call to ATC and probalby a couple of nav selections for the
captain to look for a runway they could plunk it on.Then back to the
relight drill. We're taught to keep trying that to the bitter end, BTW.
They take a minute or so so he wouldn't have had time for more than one
or two, and that would have been after the APU had fired up, say at
abotu 1200'. A couple of calls to the cabin would have been tossed in
their somewhere as well.
The act of picking up the book and finding the ditching checklist would
have taken a good 20-30 seconds...Time they simply did not have.
And this scenario is not done in the sim, so there would have been no
trigger for it. BTW, I'm beign generous with the actions they may or may
not have accomplished in the time they had. But all of them would come
ahead of doing a "nice to do " ditching checklist.



Bertie


The problem was multiple bird strikes, with most probably catastrophic
engine failure, I don't think you are going to try a relight in that
situation.
Do not know who did the ATC call, but that can be handled by the flying
pilot.
There was no runway to look for, once they decided that TEB was too far,
and it seems that the decision to ditch was taken quite quickly, so no
really nav selections.
Once they decided to ditch because they figured that the engine would
not be restarted, then no more relight attempt.
If as you say they were going through the relight procedure, they would
already had the book in their hands, no need to pick it up, just had to
find the right procedure.
I do not know about the Airbus, but in a lot of aircraft ditching is
considered an emergency, once you decided to ditch that is the emergency
procedure you are following.

Again, maybe the Airbus is different, but for example on my aircraft the
ditch switch does more than "sealing" fuselage, it does:
-depressurizes the cabin (so you can open the doors)
-Shuts down the packs (so no risk of pressurization
-closes the outflow valves (so no water can get in.

Check list also calls for pulling the APU and engines fire handles, you
probably don't want to ditch with APU running (or engine you are still
trying to relight)

Flydive wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Flydive wrote in :

wrote:
On Jan 20, 10:11 am, Flydive wrote:
wrote:

Low priority compared to flying the plane, deadstick, in a
congested
urban environment.
Or would you rather he spend time looking for a button on the
panel?
Well it takes 3 seconds to flip the switch, you should know where
is located.

one pilot is flying the aircraft, the other one is assisting and
going
through the checklist.
Yep.

Where on the checklist is the instruction to flip this switch?

One may assume that since it was not flipped it was not at the top
of the list and thus was of a lower priority. Flying the airplane
and only those steps necessary to (1) avoid obstacles while (2)
setting
up
for landing are of high(est) priority.
The ditch switch is at the top of the ditching checklist and usually
is
a memory item, if you are going to ditch I would say is a priority
item.


Only if you have time. Ditchig checklists don't have any memory items
at all, and in fact Bus checklists, with most airlines, have very few
memory drills. Lkikely the only memory checks are the engine fire
drill and a pressurisations blowout, and those would have only the
initial itiems on them.


Well, maybe the Airbus checklist doesn't have memory items, mine does,
the ditch switch is one of them. Other aircraft probably do too


Really? What airlane is that?


Airliners have 2 pilots and usually only one of them is handling the
controls, the other one takes care of the emergency and assists the
flying pilot. You say setting up for landing, well if you are
"landing"

No, you tell him to do what you need him to do in the circumstance.
In this case, the non handler was probably try to relight and telling
the cabin and ATC waht was happening.

They just had multiple bird strikes, with most probably catastrophic
engine failure, I don't think you are going to try a relight in that

I would

situation. I believe they did not communicate much with ATC, and that
task can be done by the flying pilot, no much overload to push the PTT
and say "we are going into the Hudson" as it seems they said. What
part of assisting does not agree with "you tell him to do what you
need him to do in the circumstance"?

Good grief.




in water the water, prepare the aircraft for ditching is part of it,
a priority.

Nope, not in this case. if they didn;t fly the airplane, the holes in
the bottom of the airplane would have been the least of their
problems, since they would have made significantly larger holes.


Bertie

One of them was handling the aircraft and did a great job, the
assisting pilot was assisting and following the checklist, you just
have to pick the correct one.


i have done.


Bertie

Flydive wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


There were dozens of things he would be doing. One, determining waht
the problem was.
Then, dealing with the immediate problem, an engine failure.
Immediate relight attempt. Probably the APU was fired up to assist in
the relight. as they would have been too slow for a windmill start.
Then a quick call to ATC and probalby a couple of nav selections for
the captain to look for a runway they could plunk it on.Then back to
the relight drill. We're taught to keep trying that to the bitter
end, BTW. They take a minute or so so he wouldn't have had time for
more than one or two, and that would have been after the APU had
fired up, say at abotu 1200'. A couple of calls to the cabin would
have been tossed in their somewhere as well.
The act of picking up the book and finding the ditching checklist
would have taken a good 20-30 seconds...Time they simply did not
have. And this scenario is not done in the sim, so there would have
been no trigger for it. BTW, I'm beign generous with the actions they
may or may not have accomplished in the time they had. But all of
them would come ahead of doing a "nice to do " ditching checklist.



Bertie


The problem was multiple bird strikes, with most probably
catastrophic engine failure, I don't think you are going to try a
relight in that situation.
Do not know who did the ATC call, but that can be handled by the
flying pilot.
There was no runway to look for, once they decided that TEB was too
far, and it seems that the decision to ditch was taken quite quickly,
so no really nav selections.
Once they decided to ditch because they figured that the engine would
not be restarted, then no more relight attempt.
If as you say they were going through the relight procedure, they
would already had the book in their hands, no need to pick it up, just
had to find the right procedure.
I do not know about the Airbus, but in a lot of aircraft ditching is
considered an emergency, once you decided to ditch that is the
emergency procedure you are following.

Again, maybe the Airbus is different, but for example on my aircraft
the ditch switch does more than "sealing" fuselage, it does:
-depressurizes the cabin (so you can open the doors)
-Shuts down the packs (so no risk of pressurization
-closes the outflow valves (so no water can get in.

Nope, it just closes the holes in the belly.


Check list also calls for pulling the APU and engines fire handles,
you probably don't want to ditch with APU running (or engine you are
still trying to relight)


Well, maybe you should go and drive your airplane into the hudson and
show em how it's done.




Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


Well, maybe the Airbus checklist doesn't have memory items, mine does,
the ditch switch is one of them. Other aircraft probably do too


Really? What airlane is that?


Bombardier Global Express

Airliners have 2 pilots and usually only one of them is handling the
controls, the other one takes care of the emergency and assists the
flying pilot. You say setting up for landing, well if you are
"landing"

No, you tell him to do what you need him to do in the circumstance.
In this case, the non handler was probably try to relight and telling
the cabin and ATC waht was happening.
They just had multiple bird strikes, with most probably catastrophic
engine failure, I don't think you are going to try a relight in that

I would

situation. I believe they did not communicate much with ATC, and that
task can be done by the flying pilot, no much overload to push the PTT
and say "we are going into the Hudson" as it seems they said. What
part of assisting does not agree with "you tell him to do what you
need him to do in the circumstance"?

Good grief.


Ok, maybe you have the transcript with a lengthy communication between
the Airbus and the ATC, is not what I heard, mind to share?
You are really unable to push the PTT and tell something to ATC while
flying the aircraft.


Bertie
One of them was handling the aircraft and did a great job, the
assisting pilot was assisting and following the checklist, you just
have to pick the correct one.


i have done.


Bertie


Right the catastrophic engines faillure restarting procedure till water
touch down checklist

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


Again, maybe the Airbus is different, but for example on my aircraft
the ditch switch does more than "sealing" fuselage, it does:
-depressurizes the cabin (so you can open the doors)
-Shuts down the packs (so no risk of pressurization
-closes the outflow valves (so no water can get in.

Nope, it just closes the holes in the belly.


As I said probably the Airbus is different, on other aircraft the switch
does a bit more.


Check list also calls for pulling the APU and engines fire handles,
you probably don't want to ditch with APU running (or engine you are
still trying to relight)


Well, maybe you should go and drive your airplane into the hudson and
show em how it's done.




Bertie



Never said I would have done a better job, and personally I prefer to
complete the flight to the destination airport rather than go into the
water, we were discussing about the ditch switch and if to flip it or not.


If the emergency check list calls for it is probably a good idea to do
it, then if you prefer the creative way, well is up to you.

I agree they did a great job, at the end everybody got out alive. That
doesn't mean that we cannot talk about what could have been differently.

You for example would have been trying to restart your engines after a
probable catastrophic failure till the end.

Flydive wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


Well, maybe the Airbus checklist doesn't have memory items, mine
does,
the ditch switch is one of them. Other aircraft probably do too


Really? What airlane is that?


Bombardier Global Express

Oh God a Barbie jet.



Airliners have 2 pilots and usually only one of them is handling
the
controls, the other one takes care of the emergency and assists
the
flying pilot. You say setting up for landing, well if you are
"landing"

No, you tell him to do what you need him to do in the circumstance.
In this case, the non handler was probably try to relight and
telling
the cabin and ATC waht was happening.
They just had multiple bird strikes, with most probably catastrophic
engine failure, I don't think you are going to try a relight in that

I would

situation. I believe they did not communicate much with ATC, and
that
task can be done by the flying pilot, no much overload to push the
PTT
and say "we are going into the Hudson" as it seems they said. What
part of assisting does not agree with "you tell him to do what you
need him to do in the circumstance"?

Good grief.


Ok, maybe you have the transcript with a lengthy communication between
the Airbus and the ATC, is not what I heard, mind to share?
You are really unable to push the PTT and tell something to ATC while
flying the aircraft.


Bertie
One of them was handling the aircraft and did a great job, the
assisting pilot was assisting and following the checklist, you just
have to pick the correct one.


i have done.


Bertie


Right the catastrophic engines faillure restarting procedure till
water
touch down checklist


OK, let me explain this to you one last time.


When the situation is outside of traing and time is short, the checklist
goes out the window. End of story. The reason we do so much training is
that when something happens, the training is what takes over. Since we
don;'t train for a double engine failure after takeoff in a built up
area, there is no procedure and it is up to the commander to cobble
something together in the time available. Your continued whining that
the checklist is that important demonstrates inexperience or idiocy.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the former.






Bertie

Flydive wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


Again, maybe the Airbus is different, but for example on my aircraft
the ditch switch does more than "sealing" fuselage, it does:
-depressurizes the cabin (so you can open the doors)
-Shuts down the packs (so no risk of pressurization
-closes the outflow valves (so no water can get in.

Nope, it just closes the holes in the belly.


As I said probably the Airbus is different, on other aircraft the
switch does a bit more.


Check list also calls for pulling the APU and engines fire handles,
you probably don't want to ditch with APU running (or engine you are
still trying to relight)


Well, maybe you should go and drive your airplane into the hudson and
show em how it's done.




Bertie



Never said I would have done a better job, and personally I prefer to
complete the flight to the destination airport rather than go into the
water, we were discussing about the ditch switch and if to flip it or
not.


No, you're not. You're second guessing the crew.



If the emergency check list calls for it is probably a good idea to do
it, then if you prefer the creative way, well is up to you.

I agree they did a great job, at the end everybody got out alive. That
doesn't mean that we cannot talk about what could have been
differently.

You for example would have been trying to restart your engines after a
probable catastrophic failure till the end.



Yep.


Bertie