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#41
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Winch Signals
The BGA Operational Regulations, Section 5 state the following (slightly
paraphrased to keep it short): 5.5 An adequate system of communication must exist between the person in charge of launching and the winch or tow-car driver or tug pilot. 5.6 One of the following procedures must be used for all launches, other than bungey launches, unless a serviceable telephone or radio system is installed between the person in charge of the glider end of the cable and the winch or car driver or tug pilot. ONE BAT METHOD Bats to be easily visible at the distance required: a) Take up slack: One bat moved to and fro in front of the body b) All out: One bat moved to and fro above the head. c) Stop: One bat held stationary, vertically above the head. TWO BAT METHOD a) Take up slack: One bat moved up and down b) All out: Two bats moved up and down c) Stop: Two bats held vertically above the head. LIGHT METHOD: a) Take up slack: Dashes of one second duration and three seconds interval b) All out: Quick dots at one second intervals c) Stop: Steady light. Light may not be red or green. 5.7 When telephonic or radio signalling is used, means must exist for an emergency stop signal which can be received, notwithstanding the noise of the engine. The lights requirement for winch launching exists because you are generally too far away for bats to be effective (OK for car launching), and because of the requirements of section 5.7. Derek Copeland At 17:30 13 April 2009, John Roche-Kelly wrote: My understanding is that the BGA recommends lights, but with radio back-up. As well as being noise independent lights require only one power source whereas radios require two, one at each end! At 12:13 13 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote: On 13 Apr, 02:00, Del C wrote: The reason that the UK BGA insists on light signals (or bats) is the same reason as the German LBA insists on lineline telephones: That is they are not prone to interference, or calls being blocked out by other users. Since when has the BGA insisted on lights? Ian Best wishes JohnR-K |
#42
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Winch Signals
Laws & Rules edn 16.3 does not say that the BGA recommends lights... I
could interpret it to mean the opposite! 5.6 One of the following procedures must be used for all launches, other than bungey launches, unless a serviceable telephone or radio system is installed between the person in charge of the glider end of the cable and the winch or car driver or tug pilot. ONE BAT METHOD - Bats to be easily visible at the distance required: (a) Take up slack, take off path being clear: One bat moved to and fro in front of the body. (b) All out: One bat moved to and fro above the head. (c) Stop: One bat held stationary, vertically above the head. TWO BAT METHOD - (a) Take up slack, take off path being clear: One bat moved up and down (b) All out: Two bats moved up and down. (c) Stop: Two bats held vertically above the head. LIGHT METHOD – (a) Take up slack, take off path being clear: Dashes of one second duration and three seconds interval. (b) All out: Quick dots at one second interval. (c) Stop: Steady light. Light may not be red or green. 5.7 When telephonic or radio signalling is used, means must exist for an emergency stop signal which can be received, notwithstanding the noise of the engine. At 17:30 13 April 2009, John Roche-Kelly wrote: My understanding is that the BGA recommends lights, but with radio back-up. As well as being noise independent lights require only one power source whereas radios require two, one at each end! At 12:13 13 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote: On 13 Apr, 02:00, Del C wrote: The reason that the UK BGA insists on light signals (or bats) is the same reason as the German LBA insists on lineline telephones: That is they are not prone to interference, or calls being blocked out by other users. Since when has the BGA insisted on lights? Ian Best wishes JohnR-K |
#43
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Winch Signals
I'm sitting here wondering how the heck you see a bat a 2,000 feet.
Heck, they're only about 2 inches in diameter, and made of light ash. -John |
#44
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Winch Signals
Old tennis racquets?
At 21:56 13 April 2009, jcarlyle wrote: I'm sitting here wondering how the heck you see a bat a 2,000 feet. Heck, they're only about 2 inches in diameter, and made of light ash. -John |
#45
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Winch Signals
When we used signalling bats for autotowing, they where about 2ft diameter
orange plastic lids bolted to wooden sticks. In the UK the general understanding of the BGA winch launching operational regulations are that you can use radios if you must, but you must still have a mechanical or lights method of signalling stop. To the best of my knowledge all UK clubs normally use bats or lights for signalling, as do the Dutch. Derek Copeland At 01:15 14 April 2009, Nyal Williams wrote: Old tennis racquets? At 21:56 13 April 2009, jcarlyle wrote: I'm sitting here wondering how the heck you see a bat a 2,000 feet. Heck, they're only about 2 inches in diameter, and made of light ash. -John |
#46
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Winch Signals
Derek Copeland wrote:
To the best of my knowledge all UK clubs normally use bats or lights for signalling, as do the Dutch. I've only winched launched at seven UK clubs, but all used either radio (most common) or fixed line telephony, with lights as a backup system only. None used bats. When I drove the winch I always wanted to know who the pilot was, something you can't signal with lights. The UK too fast (lower nose) and too slow (wag tail) signals needed some intuitive interpretation in the case of a student or inexperienced pilot, some of whom flew the entire launch in a continuous state of mild pitch/yaw changes! |
#47
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Winch Signals
On 13 Apr, 22:11, Martin Gregorie
wrote: Same goes for lights: you need them on the winch too. They provide a back channel, let people on the field know when the cables are live, and on some fields are needed to control airfield traffic. I'd be MOST unhappy to be at a club that didn't have lights on the winch. It's a good idea. For safety, though, the rule should be "light OUT = cable LIVE". Does anywhere do it this way? Ian |
#48
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Winch Signals
On 13 Apr, 22:56, jcarlyle wrote:
I'm sitting here wondering how the heck you see a bat a 2,000 feet. Heck, they're only about 2 inches in diameter, and made of light ash. Silly man. They're about six inches in diameter, and the rubber coating stands out very well. Ian |
#49
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Winch Signals
We must fly at a different set of clubs then! At my club we use Private
Mobile Radios (PMRs) to inform the winch driver what type of glider he (or she, one of our winch drivers is a lady) is launching next, for sorting out problems and for general communications on the site, not only related to winch launching. The actual signalling is done by lights unless conditions (such as a low sun) preclude this. We don't name the pilots being launched, although we usually say if it's a first solo, or a first winch launch on type. Another club I regularly fly at use CB radios for general communications, but again lights for signalling. To use radios safely you have to be pretty sure than no outsiders can interfere with or step on your transmissions. I agree that the way some trainee pilots fly up the launch can be a bit confusing. All you can do then is to give about the average power setting for the glider type and hope. In any case there is always an instructor in the back who can take over if things get too bad. Derek Copeland At 09:37 14 April 2009, Chris Reed wrote: I've only winched launched at seven UK clubs, but all used either radio (most common) or fixed line telephony, with lights as a backup system only. None used bats. When I drove the winch I always wanted to know who the pilot was, something you can't signal with lights. The UK too fast (lower nose) and too slow (wag tail) signals needed some intuitive interpretation in the case of a student or inexperienced pilot, some of whom flew the entire launch in a continuous state of mild pitch/yaw changes! |
#50
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Winch Signals
You should always treat winch cables as live, unless the winch driver has
confirmed that they are not! We have rotating amber beacons on our winches and launch point vehicles that come on when the signalling starts and a drum is selected on the winch. These are a warning that the cables are very definitely LIVE. Derek Copeland At 10:36 14 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote: On 13 Apr, 22:11, Martin Gregorie wrote: Same goes for lights: you need them on the winch too. They provide a back channel, let people on the field know when the cables are live, and on some fields are needed to control airfield traffic. I'd be MOST unhappy to be at a club that didn't have lights on the winch. It's a good idea. For safety, though, the rule should be "light OUT = cable LIVE". Does anywhere do it this way? Ian |
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