Towpilots ignoring turn signals

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 1:15:07 PM UTC-5, Gav Goudie wrote:
With their permission I will gladly give you the contact details of at
least 2
tow pilots who have experienced just such a thing (unless it was their
imagination of course...)

I would love to hear the details: Where, what type of towplane, what kind of glider, how long was the towrope, what was the glider doing, pilot experience, result of the upset.

I've been towing on and off for 30 years, in everything from C-172s to Pawnees via Supercubs and have never been near a horizontal upset. Now, having my tail lifted by a glider kiting prior to release, that I've seen ;^)

Cheers,

Kirk

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 5:00:06 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 04:47 30 April 2015, Bill T wrote:
Tow pilots need to pay more attention to the glider behind them. If the
glider is far enough to one side that you can't hold heading, then relax
the rudder and let him guide you. He'll center up when the tow gets to
the
desired heading.

We train tow pilots, and we train steering turns to our students.
Steering turns are not used much, radio first, but if the radio is busy.

We have a lot of student training. If the student can't stay centered on
tow he does not solo. Our experienced tow pilots will speak up if a rated
pilot or student is unstable on tow.

I and many tow pilots are not one to just "feed the glider the rope"
unless
there is a possible upset of the tow plane.

A tow pilot that does not get 3 flights in 24 months as PIC in a glider
in
tow is required to make 3 tows or simulated tows with another qualified
tow
pilot. (61.69 (6))
All pilots, tow pilots and glider pilots should review and practice
steering turns during their Flight Review.

BillT

If I were to fly out of position behind a tug I would only have one
expectation, to be given the rope. Trying to steer the tug by flying out to
the side, seriously?

read section in US Glider flying Handbook. it's more common than your post would suggest.

At 18:11 30 April 2015, Gav Goudie wrote:
With their permission I will gladly give you the contact details of a
least 2
tow pilots who have experienced just such a thing (unless it was their
imagination of course...)

GG

At 14:55 30 April 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
It's perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering informatio
to a
=
tow plane through positioning, without causing any sort of divergent
situat=
ion. There is no significant danger of flick rolls (at least with a
200'
r=
ope and any tow plane in my experience), that's just someone'
imagination
=
running wild.


Ok, I do fly in the UK. In 50 years of gliding this is the first I have
heard of this "technique". It is certainly never taught and as far as I am
aware, never ever condoned. I can say that if a pilot on my club tried it
he would receive counselling and told never to do it ever again. Tug upsets
are thankfully rare in the UK and I am beginning to understand why they are
not so rare elsewhere. Attempting to control an aircraft from outside,
against the will of the pilot is nothing short of crazy but each to his own
I suppose.
In answer to the question, if the tug is going somewhere I am not happy to
go I would seize the yellow knob and pull. It may well be that after we
both landed a discussion takes place but that is where such problems should
be sorted, on the ground. Bit of a moot point as where I fly both tugs and
gliders have radio and in my particular situation if the radio is U/s the
aircraft is U/s.
Just because a procedure is sanctioned by an organisation does not make it
safe, it can just mean that enough crazy people have decided to do it.
Of course it is perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering
information to a tow plane, being possible does not make it wise or safe.
On cloud flying I would tend to agree with you, but in that case you are
only putting at risk yourself and perhaps anyone else who chooses to be in
the same cloud, and that is not going to be me in any event.
A very good mate of mine told me very early on in my gliding career that
the biggest danger a tug pilot faced was the glider pilot flying behind
him. He was right and proved it in the saddest way possible. Being out of
position puts the tug pilot at risk, the glider pilot almost always gets
away with it.

Originally Posted by kirk.stant

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
So, I was getting my first tow at a very busy and very well-respected gliderport, and I saw an area where I wanted to go, so I shift a plane's width opposite the turn direction and stayed there. The tow pilot kept going straight ahead. OK, maybe he didn't see me, or maybe like a fishing guide he is taking me to a secret spot with 10kts of lift.

Next day, different tow pilot, similar turn request, no response. When I asked the second tow pilot back on the ground, he says he didn't notice it.. They never pay attention to the position of the gliders because the glider pilots don't know how to stay on tow, and deviations are just an example of their poor flying habits.

--bob

A plane's width? Not nearly enough! Seriously, you need to get WAY out there,smoothly, and stay there until the tow pilot notices the yaw and lets you drag his tail around - which he will to by simply taking his feet off the rudder pedals. But a radio is really better....

But it's always a good idea to talk to your tow pilot after a tow where anything goes out of the ordinary. Better yet, brief him before the tow, and practice some signals in both direction, including slowly deploying your spoilers (looking for the rudder waggle) and ending with a simulated engine power loss and rock-off at release altitude; makes the tow more interesting for both parties.

Kirk
66

Spot on in everything you have said in this post.....as a tow pilot with over 1200 tows in the last 6 months I have seen every thing imaginable in back of me...As a glider pilot I know every house thermal locally and try to take new, non local pilots to the best lift. I also try to take them to thermals being worked by other glider pilots but I will not take you completely into that thermal, just close enough to join. Some show up with hand held radios with weak batteries incapable of contacting the tow plane 200 feet ahead. I'm fine with a tail tug but as pointed out, it must be smooth and adequate enough to be recognized, when I'm standing on the rudder I will get the message, just don't do it too low...after 1000 feet it's okay. That being said, many glider pilots fly so out of position that one cannot tell what their intentions might be. I've given the wing wag telling the glider to get off with no response.....when there is a solid overcast and I'm within 500 feet of the bottoms I will let you know with the proper signal....you do NOT have the option to ignore my signal as I might also have something wrong with my tug...We try to give everyone the best service we can under the conditions in which we fly. Perhaps there should be a new FAA requirement that ALL glider pilots spend some time in a two place tug flying tow, they might gain an appreciation for what the tow pilot does. We have had one guy with tons of flying experience qualify and fly 3 tows only to declare that flying tow is for DARE DEVILS, and give it up. .... I've only had one bad experience with someone getting way high on me, I can tell you it's not a pleasant situation and he came very close to getting dropped..... Remember folks, if the tug pilot doesn't show up......you're going nowhere.

Walt Connelly
Tow Pilot/ Commercial Glider Pilot and all round nice guy.

Sorry Don, I can't disagree with more. I've given thousands of tows, most of them with students in the glider doing boxing the wake, high/low tow position and steering turns and have never once experienced or heard of any tow plane upsets. The only incidences I have heard of have been gliders getting to high on the tow plane during takeoff or not getting off tow when signaled do to engine failure etc. I believe this training makes for much better glider pilots on tow.
Can you cite on accident attributable to steering turns?


On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 1:15:06 PM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 18:11 30 April 2015, Gav Goudie wrote:
With their permission I will gladly give you the contact details of a
least 2
tow pilots who have experienced just such a thing (unless it was their
imagination of course...)

GG

At 14:55 30 April 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
It's perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering informatio
to a
=
tow plane through positioning, without causing any sort of divergent
situat=
ion. There is no significant danger of flick rolls (at least with a
200'
r=
ope and any tow plane in my experience), that's just someone'
imagination
=
running wild.


Ok, I do fly in the UK. In 50 years of gliding this is the first I have
heard of this "technique". It is certainly never taught and as far as I am
aware, never ever condoned. I can say that if a pilot on my club tried it
he would receive counselling and told never to do it ever again. Tug upsets
are thankfully rare in the UK and I am beginning to understand why they are
not so rare elsewhere. Attempting to control an aircraft from outside,
against the will of the pilot is nothing short of crazy but each to his own
I suppose.
In answer to the question, if the tug is going somewhere I am not happy to
go I would seize the yellow knob and pull. It may well be that after we
both landed a discussion takes place but that is where such problems should
be sorted, on the ground. Bit of a moot point as where I fly both tugs and
gliders have radio and in my particular situation if the radio is U/s the
aircraft is U/s.
Just because a procedure is sanctioned by an organisation does not make it
safe, it can just mean that enough crazy people have decided to do it.
Of course it is perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering
information to a tow plane, being possible does not make it wise or safe.
On cloud flying I would tend to agree with you, but in that case you are
only putting at risk yourself and perhaps anyone else who chooses to be in
the same cloud, and that is not going to be me in any event.
A very good mate of mine told me very early on in my gliding career that
the biggest danger a tug pilot faced was the glider pilot flying behind
him. He was right and proved it in the saddest way possible. Being out of
position puts the tug pilot at risk, the glider pilot almost always gets
away with it.

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 4:15:06 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:

....snip...
Attempting to control an aircraft from outside,
against the will of the pilot is nothing short of crazy but each to his own
I suppose.
....snip...

My joking comment (about running out of rudder) at the beginning of the thread aside, you seem to have picked up an incorrect idea about how this SIGNAL is supposed to work.

The glider pilot will position themselves just outside of the tow plane's wingtip. Just about where you would box the wake. Then the tow plane's pilot is supposed to notice this and turn in the direction away from the glider.. When the glider moves back to center, then the tow plane straightens out..

It is not "against the will of the pilot" it is communication, without the radio.

Todd Smith
3S

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 1:15:06 PM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 18:11 30 April 2015, Gav Goudie wrote:
With their permission I will gladly give you the contact details of a
least 2
tow pilots who have experienced just such a thing (unless it was their
imagination of course...)

GG

At 14:55 30 April 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
It's perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering informatio
to a
=
tow plane through positioning, without causing any sort of divergent
situat=
ion. There is no significant danger of flick rolls (at least with a
200'
r=
ope and any tow plane in my experience), that's just someone'
imagination
=
running wild.


Ok, I do fly in the UK. In 50 years of gliding this is the first I have
heard of this "technique". It is certainly never taught and as far as I am
aware, never ever condoned. I can say that if a pilot on my club tried it
he would receive counselling and told never to do it ever again. Tug upsets
are thankfully rare in the UK and I am beginning to understand why they are
not so rare elsewhere. Attempting to control an aircraft from outside,
against the will of the pilot is nothing short of crazy but each to his own
I suppose.
In answer to the question, if the tug is going somewhere I am not happy to
go I would seize the yellow knob and pull. It may well be that after we
both landed a discussion takes place but that is where such problems should
be sorted, on the ground. Bit of a moot point as where I fly both tugs and
gliders have radio and in my particular situation if the radio is U/s the
aircraft is U/s.
Just because a procedure is sanctioned by an organisation does not make it
safe, it can just mean that enough crazy people have decided to do it.
Of course it is perfectly possible for a glider to transmit steering
information to a tow plane, being possible does not make it wise or safe.
On cloud flying I would tend to agree with you, but in that case you are
only putting at risk yourself and perhaps anyone else who chooses to be in
the same cloud, and that is not going to be me in any event.
A very good mate of mine told me very early on in my gliding career that
the biggest danger a tug pilot faced was the glider pilot flying behind
him. He was right and proved it in the saddest way possible. Being out of
position puts the tug pilot at risk, the glider pilot almost always gets
away with it.

No one is actually controlling the tow plane, it is a signal!!
You dont need to move further to the right than when boxing the wake.
I guess you also never heard about boxing the wake...
Sigh...

Ramy

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 2:00:06 AM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:

If I were to...

Don, what you do or do not do is of little relevance to the discussion at hand.

Thanks, Bob K.

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 4:41:15 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

No one is actually controlling the tow plane, it is a signal!!
You dont need to move further to the right than when boxing the wake.

Well...kinda depends on how good the tow plane's mirrors are. Sometimes, it can be real hard to see where the glider has gone! But when the slip ball starts to slide over, it's pretty obvious that a turn is being directed!

As long as everything is done smoothly, it will be pretty obvious to the tuggie that a turn is in order.

And it's kinda fun, actually...at both ends of the string.

Kirk
Just a wild and crazy guy! (and a Steve Martin fan)

Thanks for the explanation of the "flick roll", Kirk. I hadn't
considered roll/yaw coupling because of the straight wings of the tugs.
Wouldn't a bent wing jet make a heck of a tug?

And did nobody catch my error about Australian towing? They go to LOW
to shortly after takeoff. I verified this with a Crown subject who
resides in the USA and has flown in Oz.

On 4/30/2015 10:50 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:22:16 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
If I understand the difference in idiom, the British term "flick
roll" is equivalent to the US term "snap roll". If that's correct,
stalling the vertical fin will not cause a snap roll which is a spin
in the horizontal plane. And, as we all know, a spin requires a
stall with yaw. In the case of a snap roll, it is an accelerated
stall and I don't see any change in AoA of the wing to cause that
stall. But then I'm just a poor victim if US military flight
training... Or I could be wrong on the term "flick roll". Or the
BGA manual could be (horrors) wrong!
Dan, I remember reading the BGA article and I think they were referring to what the towplane did when the vertical stabilizer stalled (due to the yaw from a glider WAY out to the side). The sudden loss of all yaw stability results in the tug suddenly yawing away from the glider, and the roll due to the sudden yaw results in a pretty impressive roll. Perhaps not a classic "snap roll" but interesting nevertheless!

So many interesting things going on in this thread! For the original poster: Bob, it sounds like you have a tow pilot who needs some "counseling" on his responsibility as a tuggie. If it's a commercial operation, talk to the chief towpilot or the owner, and worse case take you business somewhere else. In a club situation, that tow pilot should be retrained, and if he continues to ignore the standards, asked to leave (it doesn't sound like he's a glider pilot).

For Dave Springford and Don Johnstone (assuming you fly in Britain), are you saying that steering turns are not done there? What if the towplane is taking you downwind over unlandable terrain, and your radio doesn't work? You would just sit there? As far as steering turns being dangerous - how so? Unless you are deliberately holding off the yaw due to the glider moving off to the side (as in boxing the wake, which should be prebriefed prior to the launch), a smart tow pilot will just let the glider gently pull him in the direction he wants to go. And you have to move out pretty far before you significantly change the flightpath of the towplane. So, a competent glider pilot will stay behind the towplane, a competent tuggie will be clearing the flight path, and working as a team, they will proceed the the optimum release point, using whatever works best (radio or signals). Where a radio is really nice is the rare situation where the glider is trying to force the tug to go somewhere he really doesn't want (like a cloud, or other traffic). Without a radio, you pretty much are stuck with standing on the rudder and the glider should realize that you are intentionally refusing to turn. But the glider should never go so far out to the side that he risks stalling the tug tail (which is really far out!). So, nothing crazy at all about it.

By the way - the military uses visual signals all the time in high speed jets, despite all sorts of fancy radios. Why talk when you can do it silently...

Finally, Dan, I know that guy! He's the glider pilot who gets pulled through a boomer multiple times, underneath a climbing gaggle, and refuses to get off until 3000'agl, which is of course when you are in the sink from that boomer! Those glider guys, they are such a hoot!

Kirk
66
(Flies on both ends of the string)

--
Dan Marotta