Feds Want to Equipe Gliders With Transponders and Radios

"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...

Once again - This has already been tested. ATC radars do not have
any trouble detecting gliders of any kind as primary targets IF THEY
ARE NOT FILTERED OUT. When reflectors were added, no difference was
noticed by ATC. And from personal experience in G-102s, LS-4s, and
LS-6s, I have never had any problem being picked up by a terminal
radar when I told them where I was.


Not all ATC radars are the same. ASR displays primary targets rather well,
ARSR not very well at all. Some enroute radar sites are just beacon
interrogators, no primary radar at all.

In rec.aviation.soaring Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

I agree. But rescinding the glider exemption from FARs requiring
transponder use won't address that issue with powered aircraft that
lack an electrical system either. It looks like the FAA's response to
this NTSB recommendation is destined to be a compromise at best.
Hopefully it won't result in all gliders and aircraft without
electrical systems being grounded until they have transponders
installed and signed off.

So just remove the exemption at and above 10,000 MSL.

This is precisely what is being proposed. I don't understand why anything
else is even being discussed.

Note that requiring all gliders flying above 10,000MSL to be
transponder-equipped would still result in a large amount of either
expense or restrictions on flying for a large proportion of the
glider-flying population.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

On May 1, 9:41 am, Michael Ash wrote:
So just remove the exemption at and above 10,000 MSL.

This is precisely what is being proposed. I don't understand why anything
else is even being discussed.

A 3,000' tow at my club will go just a hair over 10K.

-Tom

"5Z" wrote in message
...
On May 1, 9:41 am, Michael Ash wrote:
So just remove the exemption at and above 10,000 MSL.

This is precisely what is being proposed. I don't understand why anything
else is even being discussed.

A 3,000' tow at my club will go just a hair over 10K.

-Tom

Yep, we do little soaring below 10,000' - big rocks tend to get in the way.

Bill D

Don't they also intend to require a mode C transponder inside class B "veils"?

A reading of
Remove the glider exemptions from the Federal Aviation Regulations
that pertain to transponder requirements and use.

would seem to imply that. There are a lot of people ( like me ) operating underneath class Bs


Sarah


Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.soaring Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
I agree. But rescinding the glider exemption from FARs requiring
transponder use won't address that issue with powered aircraft that
lack an electrical system either. It looks like the FAA's response to
this NTSB recommendation is destined to be a compromise at best.
Hopefully it won't result in all gliders and aircraft without
electrical systems being grounded until they have transponders
installed and signed off.
So just remove the exemption at and above 10,000 MSL.

This is precisely what is being proposed. I don't understand why anything
else is even being discussed.

Note that requiring all gliders flying above 10,000MSL to be
transponder-equipped would still result in a large amount of either
expense or restrictions on flying for a large proportion of the
glider-flying population.

In rec.aviation.soaring Sarah Anderson wrote:

Don't they also intend to require a mode C transponder inside class B "veils"?

A reading of
Remove the glider exemptions from the Federal Aviation Regulations
that pertain to transponder requirements and use.

would seem to imply that. There are a lot of people ( like me ) operating underneath class Bs

Yes, the idea would be to make the requirements the same as for powered
aircraft. This would no doubt have a large impact on a lot of people,
particularly our Western bretheren who think nothing of cracking 10,000ft,
and people such as yourself who operate close to class B. But it's not the
same as a blanket requirement as has been implied.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

In article writes:

Don't they also intend to require a mode C transponder inside class B "veils"?

A reading of
Remove the glider exemptions from the Federal Aviation Regulations
that pertain to transponder requirements and use.

would seem to imply that. There are a lot of people ( like me ) operating underneath class Bs

In a sailplane? Wow. Doesn't give much vertical space. How much room do you have from base
of class B to the surface? You must have to find lift pretty often...

Alan

The issue is the veil. The shelves are high enough (6000/7000 msl) to get in and out staying
clear of class B.


Alan wrote:
In article writes:
Don't they also intend to require a mode C transponder inside class B "veils"?

A reading of
Remove the glider exemptions from the Federal Aviation Regulations
that pertain to transponder requirements and use.
would seem to imply that. There are a lot of people ( like me ) operating underneath class Bs

In a sailplane? Wow. Doesn't give much vertical space. How much room do you have from base
of class B to the surface? You must have to find lift pretty often...

Alan

Alan wrote:

Other factors include the output voltage under load at discharge -- a
lead acid battery is rated to 10.2 to 10.5 volts for a "12 volt" battery
at discharge.

Powersonic uses 10.5 volts for 5 to 20 hour discharge rates.

Unfortunately, most 12 volt radios and devices are designed
for a charging electrical system, with a voltage of about 14 volts.

Most panel mounted radios (definitely for Dittel and Becker radios)
bought new in the last 20 years (and even some older ones) meet the
current requirements to function properly to 10.5 volts, and at even
lower voltages, but with reduced power output. "Very old" radios likely
will have problems at 10.5 volts. I have no idea what the percentage of
"old" and "new" are.

When
the battery is down to 75% of the expected voltage for the radio, not all
of them work. I have had aircraft radios that would not transmit below
about 11.5 volts, at which point the battery would be still above 50% charged.

Powersonic shows it's batteries have only 25% capacity left at 11.5
volts. I haven't checked other brands, but believe they are the same for
the batteries we use in our gliders.

Lead acid batteries are normally rated for capacity at a 20 hour rate of
discharge. A 7 AH battery would deliver 7000 / 20 = 350 mA for 20 hours.
Faster discharge rates result in less capacity being available (look up
Peukerts exponent for more details). Discharging faster than that, reduces
the amp-hour capacity of the battery.

At a current drain of 700 ma (10 hour rate) that you might have with
transponder, radio, etc, Powersonic shows a capacity of 90% of the 20
hour rate. That's not a show-stopper, but worth taking into account.

Lead acid batteries have less capacity when cold. One guide suggests that
for every 10 degrees centigrade below room temperature, you should add 10%
to the battery capacity needed. High altitude flight tends to get up into
cold places.

This corresponds with the Powersonic chart, so at -10C (15F), you have a
30% loss of capacity. For winter flying, and spring or fall flying in
places where you can climb to, say, 10,000' agl, it's an important
factor. Especially so, when you know your encoder will likely be using
it's heater, adding 50-150 milliamps to your current drain.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

"Eric Greenwell" wrote
This corresponds with the Powersonic chart, so at -10C (15F), you have a 30%
loss of capacity. For winter flying, and spring or fall flying in places where
you can climb to, say, 10,000' agl, it's an important factor. Especially so,
when you know your encoder will likely be using it's heater, adding 50-150
milliamps to your current drain.

Put a insulated cover around the battery, and the heat of discharge will keep
it warm and the capacity up, unless it is seriously freakin' cold.
--
Jim in NC