Towpilots ignoring turn signals

On 5/1/2015 8:43 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:14:53 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Don,

This discussion is mainly by and for US pilots. In the US, steering the
tug is acceptable practice and is taught during training. It is not
dangerous as you suggest because it's common practice.
Snip

On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a
complete idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the
first time I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure. The duty of a
glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct position
behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you have
no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While
it is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes,
it is essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand. If
you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's
ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail. What will the
towpilot do if you are pulling the tail left and he needs to turn left for
traffic? Is it worth losing a rope? or having the rope wrap around your
wing when the towpilot is forced to release? or have the towpilot or you
run get in a mid-air?

There are many things that have been changed in gliding manuals over the
years. You're allowed to make changes as you gain experience.

I've no problem with that last paragraph.

WRT the immediately preceding paragraph, I'd suggest it's also possible to
overthink things. The O.P.'s point was he'd tried to signal a U.S. towpilot to
turn a certain direction and was ignored. THAT - by far - is the most
common/likely effect from an ignored or not understood turn signal from a
glider moving off to one side.

The U.S. (and my own) experience is gliders moving to one side or another to
silently signal a turn, works, when folks at both end of the rope are properly
trained and switched on. Those times my signal was ignored...I rationalized I
just practiced 25% of a boxed wake!

So far as I'm aware, your hypothetical scenario has never happened in the
U.S., while I know of two situations where a signaled turn presented and
responded to in a timely manner may have *prevented* the towplanes being
center-punched by light power traffic. Understand, we're talking statistical
probabilities near zero...

Bob W.

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 7:43:32 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:14:53 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Don,



This discussion is mainly by and for US pilots.* In the US, steering
the tug is acceptable practice and is taught during training.* It is
not dangerous as you suggest because it's common practice.



In the US, my experience regarding ground launch has typically been
that most folks consider it dangerous.* I find it quite enjoyable
and cost effective compared to air tow.



I understand that, in Australia, it is MANDATORY to fly in high tow
position.* That makes me very uncomfortable when I'm flying the tug.



In Britain, they do a lot of cloud flying.* You've already read in
recent threads that US pilots (me excluded) think that's crazy and
dangerous.



So I ask you:* What's dangerous?* Is it what you think is dangerous
based upon your experience and under common practices where you fly,
or is it what is out of the ordinary for the region in question?* I
think the latter choice is more appropriate.




On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone
wrote:



At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:



ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.


OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.






--

Dan Marotta

I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail. What will the towpilot do if you are pulling the tail left and he needs to turn left for traffic? Is it worth losing a rope? or having the rope wrap around your wing when the towpilot is forced to release? or have the towpilot or you run get in a mid-air?

There are many things that have been changed in gliding manuals over the years. You're allowed to make changes as you gain experience.

snip ;""I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail""
By moving the glider to wingtip position would hardly inhibit the tow pilot's ability to turn or maneuver. Yes, it should get his attention that the glider is out to the side, nothing more and nothing less. And yes; I would like to emphasize that this maneuver is not meant to be "yanking" or anything abrupt (as some previous authors implied).
It is no different, the matter affect very much the same as moving out to one side kind like boxing the wake. And I'm sure no one is suggesting "yanking the wake".
6PK

On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 6:22:18 AM UTC+3, 6PK wrote:
On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 7:43:32 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:14:53 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Don,



This discussion is mainly by and for US pilots.* In the US, steering
the tug is acceptable practice and is taught during training.* It is
not dangerous as you suggest because it's common practice.



In the US, my experience regarding ground launch has typically been
that most folks consider it dangerous.* I find it quite enjoyable
and cost effective compared to air tow.



I understand that, in Australia, it is MANDATORY to fly in high tow
position.* That makes me very uncomfortable when I'm flying the tug.



In Britain, they do a lot of cloud flying.* You've already read in
recent threads that US pilots (me excluded) think that's crazy and
dangerous.



So I ask you:* What's dangerous?* Is it what you think is dangerous
based upon your experience and under common practices where you fly,
or is it what is out of the ordinary for the region in question?* I
think the latter choice is more appropriate.




On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone
wrote:



At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:



ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.


OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.






--

Dan Marotta

I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail. What will the towpilot do if you are pulling the tail left and he needs to turn left for traffic? Is it worth losing a rope? or having the rope wrap around your wing when the towpilot is forced to release? or have the towpilot or you run get in a mid-air?

There are many things that have been changed in gliding manuals over the years. You're allowed to make changes as you gain experience.

snip ;""I question whether it is wise to intentionally inhibit the towpilot's ability to turn in one direction by pulling on it's tail""
By moving the glider to wingtip position would hardly inhibit the tow pilot's ability to turn or maneuver. Yes, it should get his attention that the glider is out to the side, nothing more and nothing less. And yes; I would like to emphasize that this maneuver is not meant to be "yanking" or anything abrupt (as some previous authors implied).
It is no different, the matter affect very much the same as moving out to one side kind like boxing the wake. And I'm sure no one is suggesting "yanking the wake".
6PK

If it is merely a signal to the towpilot that has little to no actual effect on the towplane and it's up to the tow pilot to take the hint or not, then that is one thing. If it is physically pulled the towplane's tail around then that is quite another!

When I'm giving introductory lessons, manoeuvring out to one tip of the towplane's wing for a few seconds is something I do routinely, to illustrate my spoken point that I am actively flying the glider, not passively following the tug. I certainly don't want the tug to turn as a result!

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 11:13:38 PM UTC-4, Bob Whelan wrote:
The O.P.'s point was he'd tried to signal a U.S. towpilot to
turn a certain direction and was ignored. THAT - by far - is the most
common/likely effect from an ignored or not understood turn signal from a
glider moving off to one side.

this OP thanks you for bringing this full circle. and from a few towpilots' responses, my experience is borne out: some certainly don't pay attention to glider signals, except the tailwag on the ground and wingrock in the air.

On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 7:46:38 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:

If it is merely a signal to the towpilot that has little to no actual effect on the towplane and it's up to the tow pilot to take the hint or not, then that is one thing. If it is physically pulled the towplane's tail around then that is quite another!

That seems to sugar coat what happens sometimes... To paraphrase my excellent and expert CFI-G... 'You really have to pull on the tug's tail and point him in the direction that you want to go.' And so, on more than one occasion, I've given much more than a subtle signal and I've not yet gotten a complaint from a tug pilot.

That said, I will going forward, use the radio in lieu of tail pulling. Maintaining optimal position behind the tug might provide a slightly better margin, especially on a gusty day, and especially if a tug pilot might react by releasing me at low altitude.

I still think that 'boxing the wake' (with the tug pilot's OK) on a reasonably calm day is a very good skill building exercise and that it is well worth the small risk above 1500 AGL or so.

On Saturday, May 2, 2015 at 9:48:07 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
I still think that 'boxing the wake' (with the tug pilot's OK) on a reasonably calm day is a very good skill building exercise and that it is well worth the small risk above 1500 AGL or so.

There is *no* risk - it's standard operations, and a tow on a good soaring day or rotor is likely more stressful on the rope and towplane.

5Z

I do not need the tug pilots "Ok" to box the wake. Although as a courtesy in a training environment I will call to ask him to "hold heading" for the student. It's normally been pre briefed before takeoff anyway.
Boxing in a turn, no issues, it's a little tough for the tow pilot when you are inside the turn, he has to work harder, but he'll be rewarded when you are outside the turn.

As a CFIG and Tow Pilot, we train our tow pilots. It's hard to get qualified Pawnee tow pilots, so we grow our own.
During qualification training I will go to the left and right limits on tow so the new tuggie will know what could happen. I will not go to low limit, just a little lower than a normal box the wake. I will move off to the side so I can see the tow and move to a god awful high position so the new tuggie can realize what could happen if a glider kited on him.

I had a visiting glider pilot that zoomed and turned to "spring board" off the tow to get some extra altitude. I saw him go low and felt him start his zoom climb. He yanked me pretty hard and was late on his release and pulled my tail up and side ways, I told him if he tries that again it was his last tow at our club.
BillT

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 10:37:05 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Jim,



Did you wave him off or drop the rope?* Ropes and rings are
expensive!

Dan Marotta

Hi Dan,

My situation was pretty violent. It was a botched attempt at steering. There were two very strong tugs to my left, one after another. After the second wallop, I was convinced that the glider pilot thought he had released and was executing his clearing turn (we were near the release altitude).

I personally know two tow pilots that have been the recipient of clearing turns after the glider pilot _thought_ they had released and both tow pilots ended up standing on the rudder peddles. One wound up in an inverted spin.

I didn't want to give the glider pilot a third try, so I released them.
The instructor was smart enough to return to the airport with the rope.

I've never been yanked that hard, even in wave turbulence.
Believe me, they deserved the rope.

Regards,
Jim

Understand. Thanks for telling your story.

I had a glider get so far out of position once (high and outside the
turn) that, as I was reaching for the release, he dived across my tail,
wrapping the rope around the wing of his borrowed HP-14. The wing was
cut, top and bottom, all the way to the spar. He didn't even realize
what he'd done until that evening he when he asked for help derigging.
I was invited to come over and have a look.

Dan

On 5/3/2015 5:50 PM, Jim David wrote:
On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 10:37:05 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Jim,



Did you wave him off or drop the rope? Ropes and rings are
expensive!

Dan Marotta
Hi Dan,

My situation was pretty violent. It was a botched attempt at steering. There were two very strong tugs to my left, one after another. After the second wallop, I was convinced that the glider pilot thought he had released and was executing his clearing turn (we were near the release altitude).

I personally know two tow pilots that have been the recipient of clearing turns after the glider pilot _thought_ they had released and both tow pilots ended up standing on the rudder peddles. One wound up in an inverted spin.

I didn't want to give the glider pilot a third try, so I released them.
The instructor was smart enough to return to the airport with the rope.

I've never been yanked that hard, even in wave turbulence.
Believe me, they deserved the rope.

Regards,
Jim


--
Dan Marotta

Student pilot he can someone please explain why the SSA signals for the turn are the opposite of what is in the FAA Glider Flying Handbook?

That seems like it could cause some confusion. The SSA signals seem to make more sense, and seem accurate to what is discussed here.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...a/gfh_ch07.pdf Figure 7.2

vs

http://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html

-Garrett