Towpilots ignoring turn signals

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 10:57:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Student pilot he can someone please explain why the SSA signals for the turn are the opposite of what is in the FAA Glider Flying Handbook?

That seems like it could cause some confusion. The SSA signals seem to make more sense, and seem accurate to what is discussed here.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...a/gfh_ch07.pdf Figure 7.2

vs

http://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html

-Garrett

This version of the Glider Flying Handbook is incorrect.
UH

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 10:57:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Student pilot he can someone please explain why the SSA signals for the turn are the opposite of what is in the FAA Glider Flying Handbook?

That seems like it could cause some confusion. The SSA signals seem to make more sense, and seem accurate to what is discussed here.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...a/gfh_ch07.pdf Figure 7.2

vs

http://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html

-Garrett

Garrett, The FAA publication is WRONG.

....Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!

Dan

On 5/3/2015 8:57 PM, wrote:
Student pilot he can someone please explain why the SSA signals for the turn are the opposite of what is in the FAA Glider Flying Handbook?

That seems like it could cause some confusion. The SSA signals seem to make more sense, and seem accurate to what is discussed here.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...a/gfh_ch07.pdf Figure 7.2

vs

http://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html

-Garrett

--
Dan Marotta

On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!



Dan

Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the left... causing a left turn.

Hence, the FAA version is wrong.

Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the numerous errors in that book.

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 10:51:55 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
So, I was getting my first tow at a very busy and very well-respected gliderport, and I saw an area where I wanted to go, so I shift a plane's width opposite the turn direction and stayed there. The tow pilot kept going straight ahead. OK, maybe he didn't see me, or maybe like a fishing guide he is taking me to a secret spot with 10kts of lift.

Next day, different tow pilot, similar turn request, no response. When I asked the second tow pilot back on the ground, he says he didn't notice it.. They never pay attention to the position of the gliders because the glider pilots don't know how to stay on tow, and deviations are just an example of their poor flying habits.

--bob

I admit that the general consensus to this posting disturbs me a little. I have moved left or right to signal a desire to change the direction of the tow (when, for some reason a radio cannot be used) , but I do not consider this to be "steering" the tow plane. I am signaling the tow pilot of my wish to change the direction, but i do not consider this to be "steering" the tow plane. I feel it is entirely the tow pilot's responsibility and decision as to where to fly. If the tow pilot accepts my signaling, fine; if not, fine too. If the tow pilot does not accept my signal I have no way to know if the tow pilot even noticed my signal. That's fine too.

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 9:11:03 AM UTC-6, C-FFKQ (42) wrote:
On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!



Dan

Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the left.... causing a left turn.

Hence, the FAA version is wrong.

Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the numerous errors in that book.

The SSA and SSAF tried unsuccessfully to review the draft. Note the foreword thanks to the SSA at ssa.com. When the FAA version was published, that domain was still for sale at a ridiculous price, and had been for nearly 20 years. Looks like the other SSA finally got their hands on it.

Frank Whiteley

"As a towpilot, if you get far enough out of position to "steer" me and I run out of leg, expect to see my end of the tow rope coming back at you.

Attempting to steer the towplane by pulling his tail around is just dumb."

Using the radio to ask the tow pilot to change course is vastly preferable to using the turn signals (just as is the case with most of the other tow-glider signals) but they are standard Soaring Association Of Canada procedures and are in the student and instructor manuals. They specify "pull gently" and should be done so that you don't get any more out to the side than during a boxing the wake exercise.

I've never used them because I use the radio.

At 15:11 04 May 2015, C-FFKQ 42 wrote:
On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!



Dan

Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the
towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the
left... causing a left turn.

Hence, the FAA version is wrong.

Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the
numerous errors in that book.

So let me get this straight, the SSA say one thing and the FAA say exactly
the opposite about a very questionable procedure. I can be forgiven for
thinking that perhaps there is something a bit wrong with your approach to
this subject. You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
in the direction you intended. Have a thought for the poor tug pilot, his
reaction will depend on which book he has read. The best you can be
guaranteed to achieve is that if you fly out to one side the tug pilot will
change direction, not necessarily the direction you intended, very useful.

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 6:00:05 AM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 15:11 04 May 2015, C-FFKQ 42 wrote:
On Monday, 4 May 2015 10:37:09 UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
...Because the FAA version is (gasp) wrong!



Dan

Think about it... if the glider flies out to the far right, it drags the
towplane's tail to the right, thus pointing the towplane nose to the
left... causing a left turn.

Hence, the FAA version is wrong.

Tom Knauff has been (unsuccessfully) trying to get the FAA to correct the
numerous errors in that book.

So let me get this straight, the SSA say one thing and the FAA say exactly
the opposite about a very questionable procedure. I can be forgiven for
thinking that perhaps there is something a bit wrong with your approach to
this subject. You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
in the direction you intended. Have a thought for the poor tug pilot, his
reaction will depend on which book he has read. The best you can be
guaranteed to achieve is that if you fly out to one side the tug pilot will
change direction, not necessarily the direction you intended, very useful.

In all fairness I'm sure they both meant the same. It was an unfortunate typo that god only knows why was never corrected.
On the other hand as an experienced tow pilot if someone went out on say your left side for you turning even more to the left would make little sense.
6PK

At 12:57 14 May 2015, Don Johnstone wrote:
... You need both your oars in the water if you are going to go
in the direction you intended.

Excellent, Don, and very worthy of someone from a traditionally
sea-faring nation!
ROTFL.
J.