Why is a standard hold right turns?

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:t4GDc.125921$0y.63326@attbi_s03...

Is there any indication as to which was standardized first--the
holding-pattern direction or the traffic pattern direction?


None of the material in my possession provides even a hint which was first.

I don't have any idea.
One idea I'll throw out is that if a pilot already in a right turn sees
a conflicting aircraft ahead of him, he'll already be deviating to the
right since he's in a right turn pattern. If he was in a left pattern he
would have to switch to a right turn to avoid the oncoming aircraft if
they were approaching head on, since both aircraft are supposed to turn
right to avoid a head on conflict per the FAR's.

JPH

Roy Smith wrote:
It has always struck me odd that a standard landing pattern is left
turns and a standard hold is right turns. Having a left patterns for
landing makes a bit of sense, since the pilot is on the left side of the
cockpit and has a better view of the runway making left turns.

But, for IFR holds, there doesn't seem to be any advantage to one way or
the other. Why did they pick right turns to be standard?

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:35:03 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

It has always struck me odd that a standard landing pattern is left
turns and a standard hold is right turns. Having a left patterns for
landing makes a bit of sense, since the pilot is on the left side of the
cockpit and has a better view of the runway making left turns.

But, for IFR holds, there doesn't seem to be any advantage to one way or
the other. Why did they pick right turns to be standard?

As an IFR student, I was told that it is so controllers can easily
pick out planes in a hold vs planes in the pattern. It sounded good
at the time, but in retrospect, I question the statement:

1. Holds are pretty uncommon. Holds when VFR conditions exist at the
surface (to allow pattern work) seem even less likely.

2. Is a controller really going to use relative motion to pick
targets? It seems to me it would be easier to just look at their
squawk code or altitude.

"Nathan Young" wrote in message =
...
On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:35:03 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:
=20
It has always struck me odd that a standard landing pattern is left=20
turns and a standard hold is right turns. Having a left patterns for =

landing makes a bit of sense, since the pilot is on the left side of =
the=20
cockpit and has a better view of the runway making left turns.

But, for IFR holds, there doesn't seem to be any advantage to one way =
or=20
the other. Why did they pick right turns to be standard?
=20
As an IFR student, I was told that it is so controllers can easily
pick out planes in a hold vs planes in the pattern. It sounded good
at the time, but in retrospect, I question the statement:
=20
1. Holds are pretty uncommon. Holds when VFR conditions exist at the
surface (to allow pattern work) seem even less likely.
=20
2. Is a controller really going to use relative motion to pick
targets? It seems to me it would be easier to just look at their
squawk code or altitude.

How about: "3. Right-Hand Holds predated Radar by decades!"
---JRC---

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 03:41:58 GMT, "John R. Copeland"
wrote:


"Nathan Young" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:35:03 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

It has always struck me odd that a standard landing pattern is left
turns and a standard hold is right turns. Having a left patterns for
landing makes a bit of sense, since the pilot is on the left side of the
cockpit and has a better view of the runway making left turns.

But, for IFR holds, there doesn't seem to be any advantage to one way or
the other. Why did they pick right turns to be standard?

As an IFR student, I was told that it is so controllers can easily
pick out planes in a hold vs planes in the pattern. It sounded good
at the time, but in retrospect, I question the statement:

1. Holds are pretty uncommon. Holds when VFR conditions exist at the
surface (to allow pattern work) seem even less likely.

2. Is a controller really going to use relative motion to pick
targets? It seems to me it would be easier to just look at their
squawk code or altitude.

How about: "3. Right-Hand Holds predated Radar by decades!"

Excellent point!

Nathan Young wrote in message . ..

1. Holds are pretty uncommon. Holds when VFR conditions exist at the
surface (to allow pattern work) seem even less likely.

They're probably far more common in VFR conditions, because more
aircraft are flying and therefore more flight training is being
conducted. Holds are the domain of instrument-rating applicants.

Roy Smith wrote in message ...
It has always struck me odd that a standard landing pattern is left
turns and a standard hold is right turns. Having a left patterns for
landing makes a bit of sense, since the pilot is on the left side of the
cockpit and has a better view of the runway making left turns.

But, for IFR holds, there doesn't seem to be any advantage to one way or
the other. Why did they pick right turns to be standard?

Perhaps they just had to pick one and since most of us are right
handed, it may have been an easy suggestion. The straight section was
probably to adjust for wind correction, etc. It would be pretty hard
to stay over the holding fix if you just kept turning and never flew
straight. Of course, back then, the holding fix was probably an AM
radio beacon not a fix painted on a full color Garmin. The left hand
landing pattern seems pretty obvious since people seem to have always
wanted to fly from the left seat.

-Robert

(Robert M. Gary) wrote in
m:

snip
... The left hand
landing pattern seems pretty obvious since people seem to have always
wanted to fly from the left seat.


Do people in Europe fly from the right seat?

Do people in Europe fly from the right seat?

are you serious? They certainly can just like many people
in the US fly from the right seat (CFI's)

it is the same as the US. I bet even in England, they fly
from the left seat but they probably don't call the V-airways
as a V like often doesn't mean "victory" but "f**k you." grin

Gerald

Judah wrote in news:Xns951DD2EF8772AjudahNOSPAMMSG@
167.206.3.2:

Do people in Europe fly from the right seat?

They do if they fly helicopters, just as we do in the US. Flying from the
left seat has never made any sense at all to me. Most people are right-
handed, and flying from the left seat requires using your left hand, while
using the right to tune radios, etc. We fly helicopters from the right,
allowing the use of the right hand on the cyclic stick to keep upright, while
tuning, eating donuts, etc with the left.

In reality, flying from the right puts the collective in the center, so you
don't have to climb over it to get in and out; plus, the very early models
had only one collective, and the left-seat pilot had to use the left hand on
the cyclic, and the right on the collective, and this isn't easy to get used
to. Most of these type things go back to historical trivia; it was done on
one model for whatever reason, and just became tradition.

Regards,

Stan