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#51
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"Brad Z" wrote in message news:Kphlc.14276$_41.910388@attbi_s02...
Check the date genius, that post was from 2001. well genius yourself. was the original post not cut and pasted into the post ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????? |
#52
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Dave S wrote in message link.net...
There was no reference to the sightseeing flight being for profit. Hence that is part 91. Hence the part 135 regulations do not apply. Thank you for playing. Dave oh a childish retort A-La Tarver. read 135.1 /135.3 running with scissors wrote: Rich Ahrens wrote in message isi.com... running with scissors wrote: Andrew Sarangan wrote in message . 146.158... (running with scissors) wrote in om: As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left seat? what purpose would it serve ? There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed doing your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable knowledge of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of CRM. Please cite the paragraph number of this regulation that pertains to right seat flying. read the FAR's and the AFM. In other words, you can't come up with a regulatory reference. 135.113/135.115 & read under part 23/25m and i admit to not adding the reference to renters policy and insurance |
#53
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"Brad Z" wrote in message news:2ajlc.14391$TD4.1830334@attbi_s01...
Nice try. Even if this did apply to part 135, no one said anything about manipulation of the controls by the passenger, hence 135.115 doesn't apply. And if 135.113 did apply, the passenger couldn't ride in the right seat either, since it is a pilot's seat. read 135.1/135.3 and the AFM. "running with scissors" wrote in message om... Rich Ahrens wrote in message isi.com... running with scissors wrote: Andrew Sarangan wrote in message .158... (running with scissors) wrote in om: As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left seat? what purpose would it serve ? There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed doing your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable knowledge of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of CRM. Please cite the paragraph number of this regulation that pertains to right seat flying. read the FAR's and the AFM. In other words, you can't come up with a regulatory reference. 135.113/135.115 & read under part 23/25m and i admit to not adding the reference to renters policy and insurance |
#55
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I'm not aware of any FARs specifically prohibiting it. However if something
were to happen, and you hadn't had some training in the right seat, they could get you with the old "careless and reckless" part if they thought flying from over there contributed. "Matt Whiting" wrote in message ... This isn't an IFR related question, but I don't see an r.a group devoted to instruction. I just received the May/June issue of Aviator's Guide and they make an interesting claim on page 38. In the third paragraph they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat. I've never thought about doing this, but never considered that it could be illegal. Can anyone here confirm this, preferably with a reference to the approriate FAR? I've never come across an FAR that addressed this before. Matt |
#56
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#57
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running with scissors wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote in message ... running with scissors wrote: Bob Moore wrote in message .8... (running with scissors) wrote you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith. As if your posting name didn't say enough about you, your entire post says that you are either very inexperienced or lacking in confidence in yourself and other pilots. It's been years since I have flown from the left seat of a general aviation aircraft. A few years back when I was flying 12-13 year old "Young Eagles", I never sat in the left seat, and as a matter-of-fact, very seldom touched the controls. The CFI who did my last Flight Review was amused when I flew the entire flight including the instrument portion from the right seat of a C-172. Bob Moore you are missing the whole point of the post. the original poster stated that it was sightseeing flight and it was a passenger, zero experience, who would be in the left seat and the poster was not a rated instructor. You've now made this incorrect assertion at least three times. You may want to review the thread before making such bold statements. Matt quote From: Anthony Acri ) Subject: Right Seat Flying Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the right seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some people up for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been doing my instructors courses. Thanks end quote That wasn't the "original post." Is this a hard concept to understand? Matt |
#58
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Matt Whiting wrote:
running with scissors wrote: From: Anthony Acri ) Subject: Right Seat Flying Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the right seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some people up for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been doing my instructors courses. Thanks As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left seat? what purpose would it serve ? You might be helping a student pilot work on some procedures in between their lessons. I went back and re-read Amy's article and she did say student pilot, however, I don't see why it matters whether the left seat occupant is a student pilot or a non-pilot. I've never come across an FAR that says I can't fly from the right seat, no matter who is in the left seat or whether it is empty. I heard back from Amy. As I stated above, she was referring specifically to a student pilot and apparently the "sole manipulator" rule prohibits a non-instructor pilot from allowing a student pilot to manipulate the controls as this would constitute the student pilot carrying a passenger. However, I don't see why this would matter which seat you were sitting in. If this is illegal, seems it would be as illegal to have the student in the right seat. It also seems odd that you can let a non-student handle the controls and be legal, but can't let a student pilot legally fly when you are in the airplane. I would have posted Amy's email here, but she didn't respond to my request for permission to do so and I don't consider it good etiquette to post an email sent to me without the author's OK. Matt |
#59
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Matt Whiting wrote:
I heard back from Amy. As I stated above, she was referring specifically to a student pilot and apparently the "sole manipulator" rule prohibits a non-instructor pilot from allowing a student pilot to manipulate the controls as this would constitute the student pilot carrying a passenger. However, I don't see why this would matter which seat you were sitting in. If this is illegal, seems it would be as illegal to have the student in the right seat. It also seems odd that you can let a non-student handle the controls and be legal, but can't let a student pilot legally fly when you are in the airplane. That, of course, is even crazier. There is no rule that prevents a non-instructor pilot from letting someone else manipulate the controls, or even takeoff and land the plane. The "sole manipulator" rule applies to logging time (and even with that there was some odd letter from the FAA implying that if there were no one else on board who could possibly be PIC, you could log the time that a passenger was manipulating the controls). A student isn't "carrying a passenger" if he or she manipulates the controls when someone else is PIC. The PIC is responsible for the plane and the passenger no matter who is at the controls. -- David Rind |
#60
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David Rind wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote: I heard back from Amy. As I stated above, she was referring specifically to a student pilot and apparently the "sole manipulator" rule prohibits a non-instructor pilot from allowing a student pilot to manipulate the controls as this would constitute the student pilot carrying a passenger. However, I don't see why this would matter which seat you were sitting in. If this is illegal, seems it would be as illegal to have the student in the right seat. It also seems odd that you can let a non-student handle the controls and be legal, but can't let a student pilot legally fly when you are in the airplane. That, of course, is even crazier. There is no rule that prevents a non-instructor pilot from letting someone else manipulate the controls, or even takeoff and land the plane. The "sole manipulator" rule applies to logging time (and even with that there was some odd letter from the FAA implying that if there were no one else on board who could possibly be PIC, you could log the time that a passenger was manipulating the controls). A student isn't "carrying a passenger" if he or she manipulates the controls when someone else is PIC. The PIC is responsible for the plane and the passenger no matter who is at the controls. The FAA isn't always logical. I got a third email from Amy and she said an acquaintance of hers was a student pilot and went up with another pilot (not an instructor) and was flying in the left seat. The FAA caught wind of this and made the claim that the student was acting as PIC because they were the sole manipulator of the controls and was seated in the left seat which is traditionally the seat occupied by the PIC. Since another person was in the airplane at the time, the student lost their certificate for 120 days for carrying a passenger illegally. She said this was challenged and was upheld in court. I don't know all the details and am not going to send Amy a 4th email, but I have no reason to doubt what she's saying. I've read enough stories about FAA actions and NTSB appeals to know that logic seems often absent in these proceedings. Matt |
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