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#31
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Newps wrote in message news:0jTdc.112869$K91.324392@attbi_s02...
You don't accept a visual until you can actually see the aiport. You can be vectored for a visual because you don't yet see the airport but reasonably expect you might if you can get closer. Scott, I'm finding this very confusing. Can you direct me to where it says I must actually see the airport to accept a visual approach? We've been cleared for a visual approach many times when more than 10 miles from a non-towered airport w/out an IAP. The airport was definately not in sight. No vectoring was involved. Cheers, Sydney |
#32
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"Snowbird" wrote in message om... I'm finding this very confusing. Can you direct me to where it says I must actually see the airport to accept a visual approach? We've been cleared for a visual approach many times when more than 10 miles from a non-towered airport w/out an IAP. The airport was definately not in sight. No vectoring was involved. Had you reported a preceding aircraft in sight that had been cleared for a visual approach? FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control Chapter 7. Visual Section 4. Approaches 7-4-3. CLEARANCE FOR VISUAL APPROACH ARTCCs and approach controls may clear aircraft for visual approaches using the following procedures: NOTE- Towers may exercise this authority when authorized by a LOA with the facility that provides the IFR service, or by a facility directive at collocated facilities. a. Controllers may initiate, or pilots may request, a visual approach even when an aircraft is being vectored for an instrument approach and the pilot subsequently reports: 1. The airport or the runway in sight at airports with operating control towers. 2. The airport in sight at airports without a control tower. b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an overtaking aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed difference, and ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or that the pilot has been informed that weather is not available for the destination airport. Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency to receive weather information where AWOS/ASOS is available. PHRASEOLOGY- (Ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH RUNWAY (number); or (ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH TO (airport name) (and if appropriate) WEATHER NOT AVAILABLE OR VERIFY THAT YOU HAVE THE (airport) WEATHER. REFERENCE- FAAO 7110.65, Visual Separation, Para 7-2-1. c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when: 1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or 2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it, or NOTE- The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight. 3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual separation is provided. d. All aircraft following a heavy jet/B757 must be informed of the airplane manufacturer and model. EXAMPLE- "Cessna Three Four Juliet, following a Boeing 757, 12 o'clock, six miles." e. Inform the tower of the aircraft's position prior to communications transfer at controlled airports. ARTS/STARS functions may be used provided a facility directive or LOA specifies control and communication transfer points. f. In addition to the requirements of para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, and subparas a, b, c, d, and e, ensure that the location of the destination airport is provided when the pilot is asked to report the destination airport in sight. g. In those instances where airports are located in close proximity, also provide the location of the airport that may cause the confusion. EXAMPLE- "Cessna Five Six November, Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport is at 12 o'clock, 5 miles. Cleveland Hopkins Airport is at 1 o'clock 12 miles. Report Cleveland Hopkins in sight." REFERENCE- FAAO 7110.65, Approaches to Multiple Runways, Para 7-4-4. |
#33
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Snowbird wrote: Newps wrote in message news:0jTdc.112869$K91.324392@attbi_s02... You don't accept a visual until you can actually see the aiport. You can be vectored for a visual because you don't yet see the airport but reasonably expect you might if you can get closer. I'm finding this very confusing. Can you direct me to where it says I must actually see the airport to accept a visual approach? We've been cleared for a visual approach many times when more than 10 miles from a non-towered airport w/out an IAP. The airport was definately not in sight. No vectoring was involved. You must either see the airport or the preceding aircraft. In the real world it is only a tiny percentage of aircraft that get a visual approach and don't have the airport in sight but are following another aircraft. Here in Billings we give a lot of visual approach clearances on initial contact because the pilot calls the airport in sight 40 miles out. Are you saying that the center, for no apparent reason, is just giving you a visual approach clearance without you first calling the airport in sight? If that's the case just say "unable". Whether or not an airport has an IAP is not relavant. |
#34
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
Right. The operational altitude is really MVA, which is not available to you. Why would the MVA not be available to him? Because AFAIK the MVA charts are not published anywhere pilots can get them. I've seen some individual uncontrolled copies floating around, but these are not really reliable because they have no expiration date and changes are not NOTAM'd. Michael |
#35
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"Michael" wrote in message m... Because AFAIK the MVA charts are not published anywhere pilots can get them. I've seen some individual uncontrolled copies floating around, but these are not really reliable because they have no expiration date and changes are not NOTAM'd. Okay. But you said the MVA was not available, not the MVA chart. |
#36
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message link.net...
"Snowbird" wrote in message om... Had you reported a preceding aircraft in sight that had been cleared for a visual approach? Nope. No one else going in to that non-towered airport IFR. Typical exchange would go something like "XX Center, Grumman 123 requests slow descent into Podunk" "Grumman 123, descend and maintain three thousand." (3000 will lose radar coverage and radio contact will be iffy) (around 3500 ft) "Grumman 123, radar contact lost, you are cleared for the visual approach into Podunk, no observed traffic between you and the airport, change to advisory approved, report cancellation with Flight Service" FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control Chapter 7. Visual 2. The airport in sight at airports without a control tower. That looks pretty unambiguous. My guess is what I've run into is someone who knows if he waits to clear me until I report the airport in sight, the chances that he'll have lost both radar contact and comms with me are pretty high, and has decided to simplify his life. Cheers, Sydney b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an overtaking aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed difference, and ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or that the pilot has been informed that weather is not available for the destination airport. Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency to receive weather information where AWOS/ASOS is available. PHRASEOLOGY- (Ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH RUNWAY (number); or (ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH TO (airport name) (and if appropriate) WEATHER NOT AVAILABLE OR VERIFY THAT YOU HAVE THE (airport) WEATHER. REFERENCE- FAAO 7110.65, Visual Separation, Para 7-2-1. c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when: 1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or 2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it, or NOTE- The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight. 3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual separation is provided. d. All aircraft following a heavy jet/B757 must be informed of the airplane manufacturer and model. EXAMPLE- "Cessna Three Four Juliet, following a Boeing 757, 12 o'clock, six miles." e. Inform the tower of the aircraft's position prior to communications transfer at controlled airports. ARTS/STARS functions may be used provided a facility directive or LOA specifies control and communication transfer points. f. In addition to the requirements of para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, and subparas a, b, c, d, and e, ensure that the location of the destination airport is provided when the pilot is asked to report the destination airport in sight. g. In those instances where airports are located in close proximity, also provide the location of the airport that may cause the confusion. EXAMPLE- "Cessna Five Six November, Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport is at 12 o'clock, 5 miles. Cleveland Hopkins Airport is at 1 o'clock 12 miles. Report Cleveland Hopkins in sight." REFERENCE- FAAO 7110.65, Approaches to Multiple Runways, Para 7-4-4. |
#37
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Newps wrote in message news:ol2ec.8025$wP1.27020@attbi_s54...
You must either see the airport or the preceding aircraft. In the real world it is only a tiny percentage of aircraft that get a visual approach and don't have the airport in sight but are following another aircraft. We're not following another aircraft. Here in Billings we give a lot of visual approach clearances on initial contact because the pilot calls the airport in sight 40 miles out. (wolf whistle) Nice. Here in the midwest, we get a lot of summer wx where there's not a cloud in the sky and the vis is nominally VFR -- at least you can make out airports which are 3 miles away by GPS. But it's really flight by reference to instruments. The forward vis is nil. And once one starts a descent, the radius shrinks. Practically speaking, I'm not going to see the airport until I'm practically flying over it, yet there's no question whatsoever about my ability to land there under VFR. Are you saying that the center, for no apparent reason, is just giving you a visual approach clearance without you first calling the airport in sight? The latter (vis approach clearance without me first calling the airport in sight), but not the former. At the MIA, both radar and radio reception will be tenuous -- and at an airport with no IAP there's no requirement to assure radio reception at a given altitude as there is with, for example, a MAHP. Operationally, there are several apparent reasons why it's probably helpful to go ahead and issue the clearance. Cheers, Sydney |
#38
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#39
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(Michael) wrote:
That sounds realistic. On the other hand, the controller has an option that is just as simple and not contrary to regulation. The option is a cruise clearance. That allows you to shoot any approach, which presumably includes the visual and preserves the option of shooting a SIAP if you don't get the airport in sight, or the contact if the vis isn't quite good enough for the visual. As somebody who flies mostly in the New York area, I've never gotten a cruise clearance in my life, so I'm not really up on the details. What happens if I get "Cleared to the White Plains airport, via direct, cruise 3000, frequency change approved, have a nice night"? For the moment, let's assume it's 2:00 AM and the tower is closed. I plug HPN into my GPS, climb to 3000, and keep turning the little airplane icon until the track and bearing say the same number. Then what? I need 1000 and 3 to fly a visual. 30 miles out, I tune in the ATIS and hear that the weather is 2500 & 10. I'm currently in IMC. When do I begin my descent out of 3000 for the visual? I'm guessing I can't and must shoot an instrument approach? OK, I decided to shoot the GPS-34 (http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../HPN_agr34.pdf). At what point do I stop going direct HPN and start heading to TUGME (the IAF)? And when do I begin my descent out of 3000? I'm guessing only once I pass TUGME, so let's assume that for the moment. So, I start on down from TUGME, and quickly break out right at 2500 and see the airport. Can I then change my mind about flying the GPS-34 and switch to the visual? I'm guessing I can, so I make a right turn, heading 000, to get lined up for a straight-in to 29 (my preferred runway since it puts me closest to my parking spot). Halfway to the airport, I discover I made a poor choice in breaking off the GPS approach because suddenly I find myself in a rain shower and quickly after that, back in IMC at 2000. I'm not worried about terrain in the immediate vicinity because I know I'm above anything close, but I figure a climb back to the MSA makes sense anyway, so I do that. Now what? If I decide to climb to 3000 and head back to TUGME for another GPS approach, am I still operating within my cruise clearance? I guess the gist of my question is, does the cruise clearance let me fly a single approach, or does it let me stooge around in the vicinity of the airport trying multiple approaches until I get in or give up? |
#40
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