If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Future Club Training Gliders
The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
the L-13. Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"? I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any problems either. I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in Schweizers. |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Future Club Training Gliders
You guys throw around these ideas that we should just do away with
2-33 and train with new DG's and ASK21's. Have you ever considered how many smaller clubs there are that cannot afford to do such a thing? If you're willing to donate the money to our club for a new ASK21, we'd be happy to accomodate your idea. |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 15, 9:59*am, Westbender wrote:
You guys throw around these ideas that we should just do away with 2-33 and train with new DG's and ASK21's. Have you ever considered how many smaller clubs there are that cannot afford to do such a thing? If you're willing to donate the money to our club for a new ASK21, we'd be happy to accomodate your idea. exactly. i'm a member of two clubs and i dont think either one could afford a new ASK, Duo, or DG if they sold all of their assets. Well I suppose we could start charging $500 or $1000 to join and jack up the monthly dues and flight fees. And watch most of our membership disappear... |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 15, 10:34*am, Tony wrote:
The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as the L-13. Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"? I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any problems either. I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in Schweizers. Heck, I trained in Schweizers as well (not too likely to be a team member though). Post solo I had a chance to fly a K-21, which went fine since I'd been trained to a high standard. Even with flying "low performance" planes from the start I stuck with flying; I did learn to soar well in those things. I'd love to instruct in a K-21 these days, but cost really is an issue. I hardly ever see K-21s on Wings and Wheels; there are a couple available in Europe for 50-60K Euros. New ones are advertised for 64K Euros, and I would think the delivery price with needed instruments would wind up higher (I've heard $90K for new). Typical 2-33s, L-13s, and K-7s go for $10-15K or so. We've hashed over this argument before. A number of clubs have managed to afford the more expensive ships for primary training; I say more power to them. Many of us can only afford cheaper lower performance planes. We can still train good pilots in them. -- Matt |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Future Club Training Gliders
I have spent enough time instructing to see two types of students,
Schweizer trained and everyone else. Place these two types in an ASK-21. Schweizer trained students often lack refined control coordination and almost always have little ability to control pitch and speed properly. The other students seem to do much better. The Schweizer simply does not require the refined control of more modern gliders to be flown in a way that seems coordinated. Being trained in a Schweizer typically means you will need to be totally retrained to fly anything else, and the bad habits first learned will often creep back. Find me one world team member that thinks primary training in a Schweizer is a good idea. I doubt you'll have any glowing advocates. KJC On Sep 15, 7:34*am, Tony wrote: The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as the L-13. Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"? I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any problems either. I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in Schweizers. |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Future Club Training Gliders
Find me one world team member that thinks primary training in a
Schweizer is a good idea. *I doubt you'll have any glowing advocates. unless it was the only way they could afford the training. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 15, 8:34*am, Tony wrote:
The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as the L-13. Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"? I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any problems either. I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in Schweizers. A large fraction of 2-33's already have patches on their wings due to metal fatigue cracks. I've found cracks on several the AI missed. Look at the skins on top of the wing ahead of the spar. If there are skin cracks, there's a good chance of other cracks where they can't be seen. There will be an AD - probably sooner than later. As to why there are no SB's - ask Schweizer. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 15, 6:54*am, John Smith wrote:
Am 15.09.10 01:13, schrieb John Cochrane: I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club (chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to fly and teach in. I don't understand why someone would still buy an ASK21 today when you can get a DG1000 or a Duo which offer *much* more performance for little more money. And yes, they are perfectly suited for primary training. I know they can and credit to places that are doing this, but I think there is still a place for a slightly more "agricultural" primary trainer. Especially if there is a training fleet to keep busy with primary instruction. You can learn to fly power in a Bonanza but a C172 with fixed gear and simpler systems is less likely to get a pilot in trouble. I know you can get club versions of the DG-1000, with fixed gear etc, but by the time I had a DG-1000 I'd want the retract version and use it more XC. It is unfortunate the some operations may end up in a very tough place with the L13 issue and it comes at a time when the economy is bad. Trying to contain costs is a good goal, but I worry that a lot of clubs/operations in the USA are operating "on the wrong side of the curve". i.e. focus on driving down to a minial cost - not working on attracting people who are likely to stay around and fly XC, buy their own gliders, etc. - that is helped by having a more modern training fleet and focus on XC capable ships and XC instruction/mentoring to get people going. I look at what Morgan is doing at Avenal by having his Duo there and that seems to be driving a lot more interest/activity in XC soaring by pilots there. Or at Williams where you have sixteen year old line-boys working their hours off and getting started flying XC in ASW-24s. $100k divided by 20 people is $5k each. Scale for the right amount, but even in tough financial times I'd still hope that type of funding makes it possible to raise a pool to purchase a glass trainer. I know it is not going to be possible everywhere. BTW I have nothing against older gliders, many of them are just *beautiful* and I'm glad to see them being flown and looked after. Darryl |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 14, 10:30*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:
[....] Frankly I don't think it would have mattered to me WHAT the club had to fly. I just wanted to be in the air. Same here. Now, all things being equal, I do prefer to fly a better glider. The problem is, things are rarely equal. In my (admittedly limited) experience, a club with a glass fleet will: - be expensive to join, or - be expensive to stay in, or, - limit flying time (many members, few gliders), or - all of the above. Given a choice between getting a glass ship for an hour or 1-26 for half a day, I'll take 1-26. B. |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 15, 8:37*am, Tony wrote:
Find me one world team member that thinks primary training in a Schweizer is a good idea. *I doubt you'll have any glowing advocates. unless it was the only way they could afford the training. As an advocate of wood and glue your defense of Schweizers puzzles me, so I'll figure its because your unaware of the far better wooden alternatives. The Ka7/Berfalke III/IV and the like come up for sale on a regular basis in the $7-$10k range and offer far better training and handling characteristics. You can almost begin to teach energy management in them - they at least have enough energy for one high speed pass followed by an immediate 180 and landing - don't ask me how I know. The rear seats have adjustable rudder pedals and *gasp* an instrument panel. Perhaps the best thing I can say is that you can teach a student to land two point or better yet tail first. The inability of such a large percentage of US pilots to do proper low energy landings is probably the biggest contributor to the amount of ground loop damage in outlandings. I remember standing next to one very well regarded European pilot watching a number of landings at the end of a contest day. He said to the gathered group "Does anyone in American know how to land a glider properly? We would not let any of you go solo!" Try a wooden alternative, you just might like it. I know of one club who sold their Ka7 last year to "upgrade" to an L-13. Quite unfortunate. KJC |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Club Class Gliders | Sam Giltner[_1_] | Soaring | 4 | December 3rd 08 03:28 AM |
Basic Training Gliders | Derek Copeland | Soaring | 35 | December 26th 05 02:19 PM |
Basic Training Gliders | Justin Craig | Soaring | 0 | December 6th 05 10:07 PM |
Basic Training Gliders | Justin Craig | Soaring | 0 | December 6th 05 10:07 PM |
Soaring club close to NYC, with high-performance gliders | City Dweller | Soaring | 9 | September 29th 05 11:55 AM |