What do you do in the real world?

Last night I flew from SJC to VNY. To my astonishment I was cleared
vectors to SNS, then direct VNY (despite having filed a more standard
routing) at 9000 feet. I knew perfectly well that the routing was going
to change because I've done that route a zillion times, and indeed, near
Bakersfield they switched me over to the standard LHS, LYNXX8 arrival,
followed by vectors to the ILS RWY 16R.

My question is: what should I have done if I'd been in IMC and lost comm
before they changed my routing? By the book I should have continued to
fly my clearance, which would have run me into a mountain around GMN, so
that's probably not the right answer. Viable possibilities seem to
include:

1. Divert (or climb) just enough to avoid the terrain around GMN, fly
to VNY, and commence an approach from there.

2. As above, but vector myself for the ILS before reaching VNY.

3&4 - as above but fly to LHS and the LYNXX8 arrival.

5. Divert to the nearest airport with an IAP.

My aircraft is /G so I know pretty much exactly where I am at all times.

rg

References:

LYNXX8 arrival:
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../00067LYNXX.PD
F

ILS RWY 16R approach:
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../00552I16R.PDF

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:03:57 -0800, Ron Garret
wrote:

Last night I flew from SJC to VNY. To my astonishment I was cleared
vectors to SNS, then direct VNY (despite having filed a more standard
routing) at 9000 feet. I knew perfectly well that the routing was going
to change because I've done that route a zillion times, and indeed, near
Bakersfield they switched me over to the standard LHS, LYNXX8 arrival,
followed by vectors to the ILS RWY 16R.

My question is: what should I have done if I'd been in IMC and lost comm
before they changed my routing? By the book I should have continued to
fly my clearance, which would have run me into a mountain around GMN, so
that's probably not the right answer. Viable possibilities seem to
include:

There's only one. You fly it as last cleared.
You arrive at the expected time as the expected place.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger writes:

There's only one. You fly it as last cleared.
You arrive at the expected time as the expected place.

Even if the expected place is a mountainside? He mentioned that his last
clearance would have sent him into a mountain eventually. What do you do
then? I'm curious, too.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 11:08:26 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote:


Even if the expected place is a mountainside? He mentioned that his last
clearance would have sent him into a mountain eventually. What do you do
then? I'm curious, too.

You still fly the assigned route at the highest of the last assigned
altitude (or any expected altitude at the expected time) or the
minimum altitude for the route.

Roger wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:03:57 -0800, Ron Garret
wrote:


Last night I flew from SJC to VNY. To my astonishment I was cleared
vectors to SNS, then direct VNY (despite having filed a more standard
routing) at 9000 feet. I knew perfectly well that the routing was going
to change because I've done that route a zillion times, and indeed, near
Bakersfield they switched me over to the standard LHS, LYNXX8 arrival,
followed by vectors to the ILS RWY 16R.

My question is: what should I have done if I'd been in IMC and lost comm
before they changed my routing? By the book I should have continued to
fly my clearance, which would have run me into a mountain around GMN, so
that's probably not the right answer. Viable possibilities seem to
include:


There's only one. You fly it as last cleared.
You arrive at the expected time as the expected place.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Radio failure is an emergency. You fly where ever you need to in order
to safely get on the ground. ATC will sort it out and keep other
aircraft out of your way.

Ray Andraka wrote:
Roger wrote:

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:03:57 -0800, Ron Garret
wrote:


Last night I flew from SJC to VNY. To my astonishment I was cleared
vectors to SNS, then direct VNY (despite having filed a more standard
routing) at 9000 feet. I knew perfectly well that the routing was
going to change because I've done that route a zillion times, and
indeed, near Bakersfield they switched me over to the standard LHS,
LYNXX8 arrival, followed by vectors to the ILS RWY 16R.

My question is: what should I have done if I'd been in IMC and lost
comm before they changed my routing? By the book I should have
continued to fly my clearance, which would have run me into a
mountain around GMN, so that's probably not the right answer. Viable
possibilities seem to include:



There's only one. You fly it as last cleared.
You arrive at the expected time as the expected place.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Radio failure is an emergency. You fly where ever you need to in order
to safely get on the ground. ATC will sort it out and keep other
aircraft out of your way.


So any time a piper cub flies it is an emergency?

So you can fly anywhere you want and atc is supposed to guess where you
are going or magically know whom to keep away from your unknown
position? They cancel and stop all flights while you fly wherever you want?

Does not sound good to me.

So any time a piper cub flies it is an emergency?

This is rec.aviation.ifr

So you can fly anywhere you want and atc is supposed to guess where you

He didn't say "anywhere you want".

are going or magically know whom to keep away from your unknown
position? They cancel and stop all flights while you fly wherever you
want?

Neither guessing nor magic is required. Your position is not unknown.
Flights are neither cancelled nor stopped.


Does not sound good to me.

Get your hearing checked.

Dave Butler wrote:
So any time a piper cub flies it is an emergency?


This is rec.aviation.ifr

Fair enough.


So you can fly anywhere you want and atc is supposed to guess where you


He didn't say "anywhere you want".

"Radio failure is an emergency. You fly where ever you need to in order
to safely get on the ground. That sounds like anywhere you want to
me. My point is that how the hell is atc supposed to figure out where
you are going to go if you don't follow any procedures? I am not saying
that the procedures are perfect, but guess work is not a good idea.
Putting in your expected nordo procedure (if it deviates from FARs) int
he comments section is a good idea.


are going or magically know whom to keep away from your unknown
position? They cancel and stop all flights while you fly wherever you
want?


Neither guessing nor magic is required. Your position is not unknown.
Flights are neither cancelled nor stopped.

Um, if you are going to make up some route or your own clearance that is
not what it says int he FARs, then how is ATC going to "keep other
aircraft out of your way?" The answer is - they are going to impose a
far greater delay and re-reouting than if the nordo pilot followed the
right procedures. Are you saying radar covers all of the CONUS? I
didn't know that was the case.






Does not sound good to me.


Get your hearing checked.

I still don't like what I am hearing. There are a lot of advocates for
just making stuff up.

Tim wrote:
Ray Andraka wrote:


Radio failure is an emergency. You fly where ever you need to in
order to safely get on the ground. ATC will sort it out and keep
other aircraft out of your way.



So any time a piper cub flies it is an emergency?

So you can fly anywhere you want and atc is supposed to guess where you
are going or magically know whom to keep away from your unknown
position? They cancel and stop all flights while you fly wherever you
want?

Does not sound good to me.



For starters, I won't be in the IFR system, nor will I be IMC in a piper
cub. That's a different duck altogether. If I am IFR, I am in the
system. ATC would rather have me out of the system as soon as practical
rather than spend the next several hours tracking me and anticipating
all possible moves on my part, clearing traffic out of the way. Yes,
the FARs say fly your flight plan, however, every FAA safety seminar
I've been to where this comes up, the FAA and ATC folks unequivocally
have said, lost comm in IMC is an emergency, ATC treats it as such
whether you declare it or not, and they'd rather have you get out of the
system as soon as practical over flying the rest of your flight plan and
having to get everyone out of your way.

Might be a little different in a non-radar environment, but here in the
NE pretty much everything is in radar coverage, so they know where you
are, which direction you are flying and your groud speed.

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:03:57 -0800, Ron Garret
wrote:

Last night I flew from SJC to VNY. To my astonishment I was cleared
vectors to SNS, then direct VNY (despite having filed a more standard
routing) at 9000 feet. I knew perfectly well that the routing was going
to change because I've done that route a zillion times, and indeed, near
Bakersfield they switched me over to the standard LHS, LYNXX8 arrival,
followed by vectors to the ILS RWY 16R.

My question is: what should I have done if I'd been in IMC and lost comm
before they changed my routing? By the book I should have continued to
fly my clearance, which would have run me into a mountain around GMN, so
that's probably not the right answer. Viable possibilities seem to
include:

1. Divert (or climb) just enough to avoid the terrain around GMN, fly
to VNY, and commence an approach from there.

2. As above, but vector myself for the ILS before reaching VNY.

3&4 - as above but fly to LHS and the LYNXX8 arrival.

5. Divert to the nearest airport with an IAP.

My aircraft is /G so I know pretty much exactly where I am at all times.

rg


"By the book", the route you fly should be the last clearance.

I don't understand, however, why you would run into a mountain if you are
following the altitude rules of the "lost-comm" regulations. Is your
aircraft not able to climb to the minimum IFR altitude for your route? If
that is the case, you have an emergency situation and can do whatever you
need to do.

Real world: I'm not familiar with your area. I would squawk 7600 and,
depending on my location, probably fly that "usual" clearance. Once ATC
notes that you have lost comm, they'll try to figure out what you're doing
and should be protecting all the approaches at VNY.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)