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#1
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Where is the FAF on the GPS 23 approach to KUCP?
I cannot find a charted final approach fix on the GPS 23 approach to KUCP (New Castle, PA): http://download.aopa.org/iap/2004021...gps_rwy_23.pdf The Garmin 530 and UPSAT GX50 both consider Bryne intersection to be the FAF, but there is no Maltese cross. Any ideas? Can an approach exist without a charted FAF? Is there an alternate nomenclature to replace the Maltese cross? Jeppesen plates show the same situation. -------------------- Richard Kaplan, CFII www.flyimc.com |
#2
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Richard Kaplan wrote: I cannot find a charted final approach fix on the GPS 23 approach to KUCP (New Castle, PA): http://download.aopa.org/iap/2004021...gps_rwy_23.pdf The Garmin 530 and UPSAT GX50 both consider Bryne intersection to be the FAF, but there is no Maltese cross. Any ideas? Can an approach exist without a charted FAF? Is there an alternate nomenclature to replace the Maltese cross? Jeppesen plates show the same situation. Richard, You'are a CFI-I and you don't know the answer to that question? First, it's an overlay IAP, so it's really an NDB approach with GPS overlay authorization added. Second, the primary approach--the NDB--is what is known in TERPs as an "On Airport, NO-FAF NDB instrument approach procedure." Third, because On-Aiport VOR and NDB IAPs, by definition, have no FAF, the industry added a Sensor "FAF" to these on-airport IAPs, so that the GPS avionics would have a psuedo-FAF to trigger the approach mode. Jeppesen issued a briefing bulletin on all this several years ago, and it is mention, albiet briefly, in the AIM. In reality, with a on-airport, No-FAF VOR or NDB IAP, you are in the final segment as soon as you complete the procedure turn. |
#3
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Semi-related question: Can vectors be issued for this type of approach? In
addition to the verbiage of "vectors for the approach" it was mentioned that ATC is required to specify distance from the FAF. Can ATC just provide a vector to intercept the approach course and provide distance to the missed approach point / Airport / navaid? I've only flown one or two of these as full practice approaches, so I'm curious if there was anything different about them. Brad wrote in message ... Richard Kaplan wrote: I cannot find a charted final approach fix on the GPS 23 approach to KUCP (New Castle, PA): http://download.aopa.org/iap/2004021...gps_rwy_23.pdf The Garmin 530 and UPSAT GX50 both consider Bryne intersection to be the FAF, but there is no Maltese cross. Any ideas? Can an approach exist without a charted FAF? Is there an alternate nomenclature to replace the Maltese cross? Jeppesen plates show the same situation. Richard, You'are a CFI-I and you don't know the answer to that question? First, it's an overlay IAP, so it's really an NDB approach with GPS overlay authorization added. Second, the primary approach--the NDB--is what is known in TERPs as an "On Airport, NO-FAF NDB instrument approach procedure." Third, because On-Aiport VOR and NDB IAPs, by definition, have no FAF, the industry added a Sensor "FAF" to these on-airport IAPs, so that the GPS avionics would have a psuedo-FAF to trigger the approach mode. Jeppesen issued a briefing bulletin on all this several years ago, and it is mention, albiet briefly, in the AIM. In reality, with a on-airport, No-FAF VOR or NDB IAP, you are in the final segment as soon as you complete the procedure turn. |
#4
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Brad Z wrote: Semi-related question: Can vectors be issued for this type of approach? In addition to the verbiage of "vectors for the approach" it was mentioned that ATC is required to specify distance from the FAF. Can ATC just provide a vector to intercept the approach course and provide distance to the missed approach point / Airport / navaid? I've only flown one or two of these as full practice approaches, so I'm curious if there was anything different Well, you have built-in "DME" if you're using GPS to fly this type of approach, so you would know when you're within 10 miles. Bigger question is whether the TAC facility would have this type of IAP video mapped for vectors. |
#5
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"Brad Z" wrote in message news:83Vdc.3108$xn4.16249@attbi_s51... Semi-related question: Can vectors be issued for this type of approach? Yes. In addition to the verbiage of "vectors for the approach" it was mentioned that ATC is required to specify distance from the FAF. Can ATC just provide a vector to intercept the approach course and provide distance to the missed approach point / Airport / navaid? I've only flown one or two of these as full practice approaches, so I'm curious if there was anything different about them. ATC must issue position information relative to a fix on the final approach course. If none is portrayed on the radar display, or if none is prescribed in the procedure, position information is issued relative to the navigational aid which provides final approach course guidance or relative to the airport. |
#6
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Just curious, how would vectors to the NDB final fit in with the
requirements to vector outside the approach gate if no approach gate exists? (There is no FAF) FAAH 7110.65 Section 9. Radar Arrivals 5-9-1. VECTORS TO FINAL APPROACH COURSE Except as provided in para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, vector arriving aircraft to intercept the final approach course: a. At least 2 miles outside the approach gate unless one of the following exists: 1. When the reported ceiling is at least 500 feet above the MVA/MIA and the visibility is at least 3 miles (report may be a PIREP if no weather is reported for the airport), aircraft may be vectored to intercept the final approach course closer than 2 miles outside the approach gate but no closer than the approach gate. 2. If specifically requested by the pilot, aircraft may be vectored to intercept the final approach course inside the approach gate but no closer than the final approach fix. EXCEPTION. Conditions 1 and 2 above do not apply to RNAV aircraft being vectored for a GPS or RNAV approach. AIM Pilot/Controller Glossary APPROACH GATE- An imaginary point used within ATC as a basis for vectoring aircraft to the final approach course. The gate will be established along the final approach course 1 mile from the final approach fix on the side away from the airport and will be no closer than 5 miles from the landing threshold. Steven P. McNicoll wrote: "Brad Z" wrote in message news:83Vdc.3108$xn4.16249@attbi_s51... Semi-related question: Can vectors be issued for this type of approach? Yes. In addition to the verbiage of "vectors for the approach" it was mentioned that ATC is required to specify distance from the FAF. Can ATC just provide a vector to intercept the approach course and provide distance to the missed approach point / Airport / navaid? I've only flown one or two of these as full practice approaches, so I'm curious if there was anything different about them. ATC must issue position information relative to a fix on the final approach course. If none is portrayed on the radar display, or if none is prescribed in the procedure, position information is issued relative to the navigational aid which provides final approach course guidance or relative to the airport. |
#7
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"J Haggerty" wrote in message news:GwWdc.10755$wb4.9646@okepread02... Just curious, how would vectors to the NDB final fit in with the requirements to vector outside the approach gate if no approach gate exists? (There is no FAF) Interesting. It appears the definition of Approach Gate was altered at some point. As I recall, it did not formerly refer specifically to the FAF, but to the outer marker or the point used in lieu of the outer marker. |
#8
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J Haggerty wrote: Just curious, how would vectors to the NDB final fit in with the requirements to vector outside the approach gate if no approach gate exists? (There is no FAF) If there is no FAF what would preclude them from video mapping the approach gate 5 miles from the threshold? |
#10
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J Haggerty wrote: wrote: Richard Kaplan wrote: I cannot find a charted final approach fix on the GPS 23 approach to KUCP (New Castle, PA): http://download.aopa.org/iap/2004021...gps_rwy_23.pdf The Garmin 530 and UPSAT GX50 both consider Bryne intersection to be the FAF, but there is no Maltese cross. Any ideas? Can an approach exist without a charted FAF? Is there an alternate nomenclature to replace the Maltese cross? Jeppesen plates show the same situation. Richard, You'are a CFI-I and you don't know the answer to that question? First, it's an overlay IAP, so it's really an NDB approach with GPS overlay authorization added. Second, the primary approach--the NDB--is what is known in TERPs as an "On Airport, NO-FAF NDB instrument approach procedure." Third, because On-Aiport VOR and NDB IAPs, by definition, have no FAF, the industry added a Sensor "FAF" to these on-airport IAPs, so that the GPS avionics would have a psuedo-FAF to trigger the approach mode. Jeppesen issued a briefing bulletin on all this several years ago, and it is mention, albiet briefly, in the AIM. In reality, with a on-airport, No-FAF VOR or NDB IAP, you are in the final segment as soon as you complete the procedure turn. You're partly right, this is a GPS overlay of an existing NDB N0-FAF procedure, but there is no pseudo-FAF on the procedure. Normally the pseudo-FAF would be located 4 miles prior to the NDB. But, since this on-airport, No-FAF NDB has a stepdown fix 3.5 miles from the runway Jeppesen coded the CNF at that point, and called it the "FAF" so for GPS purposes it is the sensor fix. |
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