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The Yellow Triangle



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 17th 21, 12:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nicholas Kennedy
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Posts: 59
Default The Yellow Triangle

On many German gliders on the ASI is a yellow triangle.
This Yelloe Triangle on my ASw 20 and my LS3a is the factory recommended approach airspeed. This speed is 49 knots.
This has bothered me for a long time now, I think the factory did alot of pilots a disservice by putting this, to me anyway, very low number on there.
On both the above gliders, the max speed, normal landing flap flaps down, is 86 knots.
About 15 years ago my Gold Seal flight instructor Bob Faris, CX,indicated to me in his LS3 he planned on a much higher speed in the pattern, like 70-75 knots depending on conditions. I followed suit ever since.
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  #2  
Old February 17th 21, 01:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nicholas Kennedy
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Posts: 59
Default The Yellow Triangle

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 5:56:54 PM UTC-7, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
On many German gliders on the ASI is a yellow triangle.
This Yellow Triangle on my ASw 20 and my LS3a is the factory recommended approach airspeed. This speed is 49 knots.
This has bothered me for a long time now, I think the factory did alot of pilots a disservice by putting this, to me anyway, very low number on there.
On both the above gliders, the max speed, normal landing flap flaps down, is 86 knots.


About 15 years ago my Gold Seal flight instructor Bob Faris, CX ,indicated to me in his LS3 he planned on a much higher speed in the pattern, like 70 to as high as 80 knots depending on conditions. I followed suit ever since.

I read in Soaring magazine frequently pilots stating that their in the pattern around 50 knots, this makes the hair on the back of my head stand on end! There is no margin for error at these low speeds. No reserve energy at all.

Stalling and spinning in the pattern has been going on forever, generally resulting in a awful crash.

I think we should all come up with a much higher speed in the pattern, and trim for and hold that speed until about 20' off the ground, this could eliminate alot of accidents IMHO.

I know all about the theory of adding half the windspeed and all of the gust factor, never the less Airspeed is everything! As a group we have to do better in this important phase of flight.
What do you Glider Gods think?
Nick
T
  #3  
Old February 17th 21, 01:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,548
Default The Yellow Triangle

I fly around 65-70 KIAS in the pattern in my Stemme. I slow down over
the numbers.

Dan
5J

On 2/16/21 6:09 PM, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 5:56:54 PM UTC-7, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
On many German gliders on the ASI is a yellow triangle.
This Yellow Triangle on my ASw 20 and my LS3a is the factory recommended approach airspeed. This speed is 49 knots.
This has bothered me for a long time now, I think the factory did alot of pilots a disservice by putting this, to me anyway, very low number on there.
On both the above gliders, the max speed, normal landing flap flaps down, is 86 knots.


About 15 years ago my Gold Seal flight instructor Bob Faris, CX ,indicated to me in his LS3 he planned on a much higher speed in the pattern, like 70 to as high as 80 knots depending on conditions. I followed suit ever since.

I read in Soaring magazine frequently pilots stating that their in the pattern around 50 knots, this makes the hair on the back of my head stand on end! There is no margin for error at these low speeds. No reserve energy at all.

Stalling and spinning in the pattern has been going on forever, generally resulting in a awful crash.

I think we should all come up with a much higher speed in the pattern, and trim for and hold that speed until about 20' off the ground, this could eliminate alot of accidents IMHO.

I know all about the theory of adding half the windspeed and all of the gust factor, never the less Airspeed is everything! As a group we have to do better in this important phase of flight.
What do you Glider Gods think?
Nick
T

  #4  
Old February 17th 21, 02:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 957
Default The Yellow Triangle

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 8:09:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 5:56:54 PM UTC-7, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
On many German gliders on the ASI is a yellow triangle.
This Yellow Triangle on my ASw 20 and my LS3a is the factory recommended approach airspeed. This speed is 49 knots.
This has bothered me for a long time now, I think the factory did alot of pilots a disservice by putting this, to me anyway, very low number on there.
On both the above gliders, the max speed, normal landing flap flaps down, is 86 knots.
About 15 years ago my Gold Seal flight instructor Bob Faris, CX ,indicated to me in his LS3 he planned on a much higher speed in the pattern, like 70 to as high as 80 knots depending on conditions. I followed suit ever since.

I read in Soaring magazine frequently pilots stating that their in the pattern around 50 knots, this makes the hair on the back of my head stand on end! There is no margin for error at these low speeds. No reserve energy at all.

Stalling and spinning in the pattern has been going on forever, generally resulting in a awful crash.

I think we should all come up with a much higher speed in the pattern, and trim for and hold that speed until about 20' off the ground, this could eliminate alot of accidents IMHO.

I know all about the theory of adding half the windspeed and all of the gust factor, never the less Airspeed is everything! As a group we have to do better in this important phase of flight.
What do you Glider Gods think?
Nick
T


In my experience, the minimum approach speeds given in the POH and labelled with the yellow triangle are pretty spot on where they need to be. My ASW-20B (48 kts) was perfect. My ASW-27 (54 kts) could be 50-52. Not really a big deal. These are recommended minimums. Like any other glider pilot I have had occasion to fly much faster approaches, appropriate to conditions.. Best practices are scenario dependent.

I typically fly 65 in the pattern in a glass ship (unless I need to loiter), I choose whatever speed I need to for my approach. In light conditions, it's usually right on the yellow triangle. I fly in the land of small-ish agricultural fields. It just makes sense to be good at this.

If you want to assess your margin, put the ship in landing configuration at altitude and do a slow deceleration to full stall. You might be surprised..

T8


  #5  
Old February 17th 21, 01:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 6
Default The Yellow Triangle

Ditto T8.

Speed chosen for the approach should be appropriate for the conditions. If the air is smooth, there is no wind, and the pilot has good airspeed control, minimum approach speed is usually pretty spot on.

There are benefits to slowing things down, making a slightly larger pattern, with a nice stabilized approach on final. Having a bit more time to set things up usually makes for a nicer approach and landing.

Of course, this is all contingent on the conditions. There is a time and place to fly 50 knots or even 80 knots; it all depends.

All the best,
Daniel
  #6  
Old February 17th 21, 02:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Hank Nixon
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Posts: 48
Default The Yellow Triangle

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 9:04:14 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 8:09:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 5:56:54 PM UTC-7, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
On many German gliders on the ASI is a yellow triangle.
This Yellow Triangle on my ASw 20 and my LS3a is the factory recommended approach airspeed. This speed is 49 knots.
This has bothered me for a long time now, I think the factory did alot of pilots a disservice by putting this, to me anyway, very low number on there.
On both the above gliders, the max speed, normal landing flap flaps down, is 86 knots.
About 15 years ago my Gold Seal flight instructor Bob Faris, CX ,indicated to me in his LS3 he planned on a much higher speed in the pattern, like 70 to as high as 80 knots depending on conditions. I followed suit ever since.

I read in Soaring magazine frequently pilots stating that their in the pattern around 50 knots, this makes the hair on the back of my head stand on end! There is no margin for error at these low speeds. No reserve energy at all.

Stalling and spinning in the pattern has been going on forever, generally resulting in a awful crash.

I think we should all come up with a much higher speed in the pattern, and trim for and hold that speed until about 20' off the ground, this could eliminate alot of accidents IMHO.

I know all about the theory of adding half the windspeed and all of the gust factor, never the less Airspeed is everything! As a group we have to do better in this important phase of flight.
What do you Glider Gods think?
Nick
T

In my experience, the minimum approach speeds given in the POH and labelled with the yellow triangle are pretty spot on where they need to be. My ASW-20B (48 kts) was perfect. My ASW-27 (54 kts) could be 50-52. Not really a big deal. These are recommended minimums. Like any other glider pilot I have had occasion to fly much faster approaches, appropriate to conditions. Best practices are scenario dependent.

I typically fly 65 in the pattern in a glass ship (unless I need to loiter), I choose whatever speed I need to for my approach. In light conditions, it's usually right on the yellow triangle. I fly in the land of small-ish agricultural fields. It just makes sense to be good at this.

If you want to assess your margin, put the ship in landing configuration at altitude and do a slow deceleration to full stall. You might be surprised.

T8

I'm with Evan on this.
The modern ships, with more powerful brakes than the old days, and many with flaps, allow adding some margin with the ability to shed
the excess energy fairly quickly when needed. Not so much on the older ships where speed control is important.
Going into a field, all things being equal, I will be at the yellow triangle coming over the border to the field.
It is important that this be a decision and not habit because we revert to habit in stress situations and that can lead to excess energy going into a tight space.
My observation is that more ships get broken due to too much energy in field landings than too little.
Flame suit on.
UH
  #7  
Old February 17th 21, 02:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Posts: 504
Default The Yellow Triangle

On many German gliders on the ASI is a yellow triangle. This Yellow
Triangle on my ASw 20 and my LS3a is the factory recommended approach
airspeed. This speed is 49 knots. This has bothered me for a long time
now, I think the factory did alot of pilots a disservice by putting this,
to me anyway, very low number on there. On both the above gliders, the
max speed, normal landing flap flaps down, is 86 knots.


About 15 years ago my Gold Seal flight instructor Bob Faris, CX
,indicated to me in his LS3 he planned on a much higher speed in the
pattern, like 70 to as high as 80 knots depending on conditions. I
followed suit ever since.

I read in Soaring magazine frequently pilots stating that their in the
pattern around 50 knots, this makes the hair on the back of my head stand
on end! There is no margin for error at these low speeds. No reserve energy
at all.

Stalling and spinning in the pattern has been going on forever, generally
resulting in a awful crash.

I think we should all come up with a much higher speed in the pattern, and
trim for and hold that speed until about 20' off the ground, this could
eliminate alot of accidents IMHO.

I know all about the theory of adding half the windspeed and all of the
gust factor, never the less Airspeed is everything! As a group we have to
do better in this important phase of flight. What do you Glider Gods
think?


As an impeached ex-president (not PDJT) suggested - and at which other
respondents' replies hinted - it depends on what the meaning of "approach" is.
Do you mean "pattern speed" or "final approach speed"?

There's SO much in the nuances - this one and lots of others regarding "how
one flies a landing pattern".

Of the ~double-digits of late glider pilots I've known, I can recall only one
who died in the base-to-final turn...on an essentially windless, still,
day...at a camp, with lots of glider pilot witnesses (but not me). I've no
idea what her actual speed was at the time of departure from controlled
flight, but am satisfied it was almost surely "slower" than "faster"...and,
were it possible to settle the bet, would wager Real Money she was less than
perfectly coordinated during her last turn. "Slow speed" accident, or
"uncoordination-induced" accident?

Point being, there's at least one thing Joe Pilot - if interested in flying
again tomorrow - must *never* do, & that's depart from controlled flight in
the pattern. How s/he accomplishes that is the interesting bit...

As to "the yellow triangle", memory sez the only ships I semi-regularly flew
that had one were club-owned Grob variants. In benign approach conditions,
"triangle speed" seemed to me quite adequate (& comfortable) throughout the
pattern down to my "slowing down point" pre-flare. In "typical western-US
mid-boisterous day", still seriously percolating, atmospheric conditions...not
so much. Curiously, the two fastest approaches/finals I recollect were in a
G-103 (dual) and my Zuni, both "somewhere between 75-80 knots "somewhere along
upper-final-approach segment" as I recall, the Grob one due to downbursty
conditions, the other due to a howling (but remarkably steady &
lacking-in-turbulence) crosswind. I ultimately wheel-landed both, whereas in
calm conditions my default touchdown preference is the much-beloved 2-pointer.

Do what you have to do to touch down safely. Be able to do "it" consistently.
Stay away from "panacea cures" for the most part, if ever tempted to view them
as talismans in some way. Recognize any inherent paradoxes.

YMMV...
  #8  
Old February 17th 21, 03:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Christoph Barniske
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Posts: 6
Default The Yellow Triangle

The yellow triangle marks is defined in CS 22.145 as the lowest approach speed (at maximum weight without water ballast) recommended by the manufacturer. So it should be treated as a minimum value without any margins.

Christoph
  #9  
Old February 17th 21, 03:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,548
Default The Yellow Triangle

Well, one out of three isn't bad... Fifteen gusting well over 20 is
pretty much the norm at Moriarty, and for that reason I keep my patterns
pretty close in and plenty of airspeed. It's not at all uncommon for me
to begin my base turn abeam the threshold with IAS around 65-70. My
gear door speed is 76 KIAS.

Dan
5J

On 2/17/21 6:29 AM, wrote:
If the air is smooth, there is no wind, and the pilot has good airspeed control,

  #10  
Old February 17th 21, 04:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,548
Default The Yellow Triangle

No flames here. The yellow triangle over the threshold, whatever that
may be, trees, fence, or a painted line, is a good thing, but you won't
find too many western pilots flying wide patterns at that low a speed.

I guess the point of contention here is the location where the YT speed
is attained.

Dan
5J

On 2/17/21 7:08 AM, Hank Nixon wrote:
On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 9:04:14 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 8:09:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 5:56:54 PM UTC-7, Nicholas Kennedy wrote:
On many German gliders on the ASI is a yellow triangle.
This Yellow Triangle on my ASw 20 and my LS3a is the factory recommended approach airspeed. This speed is 49 knots.
This has bothered me for a long time now, I think the factory did alot of pilots a disservice by putting this, to me anyway, very low number on there.
On both the above gliders, the max speed, normal landing flap flaps down, is 86 knots.
About 15 years ago my Gold Seal flight instructor Bob Faris, CX ,indicated to me in his LS3 he planned on a much higher speed in the pattern, like 70 to as high as 80 knots depending on conditions. I followed suit ever since.
I read in Soaring magazine frequently pilots stating that their in the pattern around 50 knots, this makes the hair on the back of my head stand on end! There is no margin for error at these low speeds. No reserve energy at all.

Stalling and spinning in the pattern has been going on forever, generally resulting in a awful crash.

I think we should all come up with a much higher speed in the pattern, and trim for and hold that speed until about 20' off the ground, this could eliminate alot of accidents IMHO.

I know all about the theory of adding half the windspeed and all of the gust factor, never the less Airspeed is everything! As a group we have to do better in this important phase of flight.
What do you Glider Gods think?
Nick
T

In my experience, the minimum approach speeds given in the POH and labelled with the yellow triangle are pretty spot on where they need to be. My ASW-20B (48 kts) was perfect. My ASW-27 (54 kts) could be 50-52. Not really a big deal. These are recommended minimums. Like any other glider pilot I have had occasion to fly much faster approaches, appropriate to conditions. Best practices are scenario dependent.

I typically fly 65 in the pattern in a glass ship (unless I need to loiter), I choose whatever speed I need to for my approach. In light conditions, it's usually right on the yellow triangle. I fly in the land of small-ish agricultural fields. It just makes sense to be good at this.

If you want to assess your margin, put the ship in landing configuration at altitude and do a slow deceleration to full stall. You might be surprised.

T8

I'm with Evan on this.
The modern ships, with more powerful brakes than the old days, and many with flaps, allow adding some margin with the ability to shed
the excess energy fairly quickly when needed. Not so much on the older ships where speed control is important.
Going into a field, all things being equal, I will be at the yellow triangle coming over the border to the field.
It is important that this be a decision and not habit because we revert to habit in stress situations and that can lead to excess energy going into a tight space.
My observation is that more ships get broken due to too much energy in field landings than too little.
Flame suit on.
UH

 




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