Trig TT21 Transponder ... reports?

Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

On Aug 18, 10:04*am, jcarlyle wrote:
Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

John, thanks now it rings a bell, it was you I was thinking of for
having 1090ES data-out.

Thanks


Darryl

On Aug 18, 10:04*am, jcarlyle wrote:
Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?

9B

On 8/18/2010 8:32 PM, Andy wrote:

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?
The included IGC logger.

--

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

On Aug 18, 8:32*pm, Andy wrote:
On Aug 18, 10:04*am, jcarlyle wrote:



Vacation made me late for this thread. Mike Schumann was curious if
any Trig transponders were "interfaced with a GPS navigation source
and being used for ADS-B out", and Darrl thought that there was one in
a glider, in addition to the FAA installation.

I've had my Trig TT21 flying with 1090ES data-out for just over a
year. The GPS source is my Volklogger, and the GPS Integrity Level is
set to Low. The VFR transponder check verified that squitters were
being sent.

I plan to have the Trig's firmware upgraded soon, so it'll be possible
to turn on the 1090ES data-in capability bit. That way, when my
PowerFLARM arrives, I'll be set to look at ADS-B traffic around me -
and also set to receive TIS-B traffic when PowerFLARM updates their
firmware in the summer of 2011.

-John

I thought the only disadvantage of 1090ES vs UAT was that the former
couldn't receive TIS-B traffic. If it's true then why wouldn't the
ultimate future-proofed solution be a TT21/22 and a PowerFlarm. *You
can get them both within a few months and the will provide the best
coverage through the transition. *That plus with 1090ES being
mandatory in 2020 for big iron you have optimal solutions against the
two scariest threats (other gliders because of the density and
proximity issues in remote locations and airliners because hitting one
of those is a buzz-kill for the whole sport). At the same time you get
PCAS to cover all the slow adopters. Plus you get integration into
glider nav systems and glider-specific collision modeling.

What did I miss?

9B

Andy you were thinking of FIS-B (not TIS-B) only being provided by a
UAT receiver. FIS-B is weather, TFR, NOTMAM etc. basically like XM
weather (free but not quite as capable, at least today).... And you
can't have that in a contest even if you want it. :-)

BTW ADS-B products used in contests are going to be "interesting" for
the poor CD to deal with, ... not just worry about somebody getting
weather reports. I'd expect Flarm to have that though out given their
existing "stealth mode" and logging of that mode setting. Any other
ADS-B receiver being proposed into contest glider cockpits would needs
some form of similar setting, and either a tamper proof way to set
that on the ground or a way to log if a pilot changes it. I don't see
that ever happening with a GA device and if the ADS-B receiver (like
the Mire UAT prototype) is relying on a serial data link and an
external device like a PDA running third party traffic display/warning
software then it's probalby hard to make that not easily hackable. And
every third party software package reading that data would need to
have settings/ways of checking known and trusted by rules committees/
contest directors. The smarts that does the "stealth mode" selective
filtering/fuzzying up of received data really needs to live within the
box, effectively also meaning that the alert software also needs to
live within that box and not on an external system --as you probalby
need the alert system having access to the raw unfuzzied/unfiltered
data.


Darryl

On Monday, August 9, 2010 at 12:37:52 PM UTC-4, Grider Pirate wrote:
There was quite a thread storm 11 months ago here about the TT21
transponder. I assume some of the 'early adopters' here purchased and
installed one. Any complaints??

I have a HUGE complaint. When I bought my TT21 it was advertised as "ADS-B out ready", met the TSO's, etc. I paid aroundd $2500 for it.

I have been researching adding the GPS WAAS stuff (also Trig - TN70, I believe) to now find out the TT21 does not meet the US standards.

The 2017 (and previous) Spruce catalog says the TT21 is for sport aircraft, meets the standards, etc. Now in the 2018 catalog they added in bold print "DOES NOT MEET USA STANDARDS."

They tell me that the TT21 can be upgraded to TT22 by MidAmerica Avionics- for an ADDITIONAL $900.

I'll never buy a Trig product again.

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 10:09:50 AM UTC-4, wrote:

The 2017 (and previous) Spruce catalog says the TT21 is for sport aircraft, meets the standards, etc. Now in the 2018 catalog they added in bold print "DOES NOT MEET USA STANDARDS."

Don't jump to conclusions. You're overlooking a lot of relevant information. Read some of the more recent RAS threads about ADSB TABS Trig etc..

The TT21 implementing TABS looks just like ADSB-Out to ATC and any plane running ADSB-in and so it works just fine for many glider pilots, maybe not everywhere for all glider pilots... it depends.

Don't ask for clarification in this old thread. Go read the more recent threads first.

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 7:33:29 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 10:09:50 AM UTC-4, wrote:

The 2017 (and previous) Spruce catalog says the TT21 is for sport aircraft, meets the standards, etc. Now in the 2018 catalog they added in bold print "DOES NOT MEET USA STANDARDS."

Don't jump to conclusions. You're overlooking a lot of relevant information. Read some of the more recent RAS threads about ADSB TABS Trig etc..

The TT21 implementing TABS looks just like ADSB-Out to ATC and any plane running ADSB-in and so it works just fine for many glider pilots, maybe not everywhere for all glider pilots... it depends.

Don't ask for clarification in this old thread. Go read the more recent threads first.

Yes, this has been discussed in detail on r.a.s. for a few years now and I'd hope was old news.

Just one point: TABS per-se is likely not visible to ATC, it is not in current deployments of ATC approach/TRACON systems I'm aware of and it's best to assume its not visible. This is at least consistent with the idea that TABS does not give ADS-B Out required airspace privileges. And on the flip side, a TT21 or TT22 transponder with a TN72 TABS GPS Source added to it *is* visible to ATC within plain old SSR coverage... thats still not going to help for any ADS-B Out required airspace flight after January 1, 2020 (Which for gliders with the partial exemption is: Class A, B, C, and above B, and C up to 10,000').

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 4:09:09 PM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:

Just one point: TABS per-se is likely not visible to ATC, it is not in current deployments of ATC approach/TRACON systems I'm aware of and it's best to assume its not visible.

I asked Trig tech support this question:

"Will a TT21 + TN72 transmit a non-zero quality indicator, aka SIL = 1 ?"

They replied:

"The TT21 is fully certified to the latest ADS-B Out cert TSO C166b – so it can output all the required data. It is true that if you wish to meet ADS-B Out compliance FAR 91.227, you should have a higher power TT22. However, there is no way for the radar to tell if you’re using a TT21 or TT22.
Inspection of your aircraft would be the only way to tell. As such I believe a number of experimental pilots have opted to ignore the requirement , but of course I cannot recommend this as it would be in violation of FAR 91.227 – the requirements for 2020 compliance."

"The TN72 offers both a SIL =1 output, and also a SIL = 3 output. So this means that you can meet the FAA compliance check using your TN72 plus TT21. https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx"

I interpreted this to mean that, a TT21 + TN72 (TABS)
looks exactly the same to ATC as a TT22 + TN70

I understand that TT21 + TN72 (TABS) does not satisfy 2020 ADS-B compliance, but I can be flying in Class E and be visible to ATC and other aircraft equipped with ADS-B In, exactly the same as an aircraft with 2020 ADS-B compliance.

I apologize if this muddies the water.