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#1
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
Back in the 80's our local Air Guard unit had F-4's. We were in Medford for the 4th of July and they were doing the usual circuit of small airports that had flyins/airshows on the 4th. The pair had completed a low pass with gear up and one with gear down. They were departing to the east and I figured they were headed to K-Falls and another show. I was watching the smoke trails and noticed the were curving a bit north, away from K-Falls. Then the smoke stopped and I knew they were coming back for one more pass. Nudged my late father-in-law and told him to look east. He was an old crew cheif who had started his naval career pre-Pearl Harbor in PBY's and had ended his time working on A3D in 1963. Gave the rest of my family a heads up and as the pair of F-4 glided past the crowd at 100 AGL and about 600 knots we all had our fingers in our ears. They did a nice zoom and disapeared going up. -- Usenetsaurus n. an early pedantic internet mammal, who survived on a diet of static text and cascading "threads." |
#2
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
Right Ed, that's for sure, but you had to stick around there, we were just
poking around at 650 knots and then bugging out - we didn't smoke and we didn't look back - but for sure the Thud could hang on in MIL pretty much - and when it opened up to 750 or 800, we were waving bye-bye "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 03:23:40 GMT, "Flashnews" wrote: Or there were those who were never out of burner having been way to afraid or smart to slow down ----- Reheat was a good way to kill the smoke signature, but consumption, even in min burner was way too high to give adequate endurance for the NVN mission. And, there's always the problem that if you are running around in reheat the rest of the formation is either way behind or way ahead. The wingman can't do it consistently and stay with the leader, the leader can't do it and keep his wingmen. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com |
#3
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
Mike wrote:
The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in flight. OPEN THIS FILE AT HOME, NOT AT WORK!!! MIKE from Secrecy News www.fas.org VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION (FOUO) More than 160 U.S. and foreign military aircraft are catalogued in a U.S. Army manual which describes their distinctive physical characteristics in order to permit visual identification of the aircraft in flight. The manual is nominally a restricted document, marked "for official use only," and it has not been approved for public release. But a copy was obtained by Secrecy News. Proper identification of aircraft is obviously a matter of military significance. Incorrectly identifying a friendly aircraft (such as an F-15 Eagle) as an enemy aircraft (such as a MiG-29 Fulcrum) in wartime "could cause fratricide," meaning the destruction of friendly aircraft, the manual states. Conversely, incorrectly identifying an enemy aircraft (a Su-24 Fencer) as a friendly one (such as a Tornado) "might allow a hostile aircraft entry into, or safe passage through, the defended area." On the other hand, mistaking one type of hostile aircraft (a Su-17 Fitter) for another type of hostile aircraft (a MiG-21 Fishbed) would generally have "no impact" -- except "if friendly countries were flying some aircraft types that are normally considered hostile." Likewise, mistaking one type of friendly aircraft (an F-4 Phantom) for another (an A-4 Skyhawk) would normally not be a great problem unless "a hostile country was using an aircraft type that is normally considered friendly." The manual covers both well- known and relatively obscure systems, but does not include classified aircraft. Although an earlier edition of the manual was published without access restrictions, the current edition (2006) was not approved for public release. But as the government imposes publication restrictions on an ever larger set of records, the control system seems to be breaking down at the margins, permitting unauthorized access with increasing frequency. In this case, contrary to the restriction notice on the title page, the document does not reveal sensitive "technical or operational information." See "Visual Aircraft Recognition," U.S. Army Field Manual FM 3-01.80, January 2006 (413 pages in a very large 28 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-01-80.pdf People who think they look alike need to go to Pearl Vision worse than I do............. |
#4
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
Mike wrote: The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in flight. The two that would have been very difficult to identify properly would have been the MiG-21 and Su-9; they looked almost identical. Pat |
#5
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
On 15 Apr, 17:00, "Mike" wrote:
The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in flight. OPEN THIS FILE AT HOME, NOT AT WORK!!! MIKE from Secrecy Newswww.fas.org VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION (FOUO) More than 160 U.S. and foreign military aircraft are catalogued in a U.S. Army manual which describes their distinctive physical characteristics in order to permit visual identification of the aircraft in flight. The manual is nominally a restricted document, marked "for official use only," and it has not been approved for public release. But a copy was obtained by Secrecy News. Proper identification of aircraft is obviously a matter of military significance. Incorrectly identifying a friendly aircraft (such as an F-15 Eagle) as an enemy aircraft (such as a MiG-29 Fulcrum) in wartime "could cause fratricide," meaning the destruction of friendly aircraft, the manual states. Conversely, incorrectly identifying an enemy aircraft (a Su-24 Fencer) as a friendly one (such as a Tornado) "might allow a hostile aircraft entry into, or safe passage through, the defended area." On the other hand, mistaking one type of hostile aircraft (a Su-17 Fitter) for another type of hostile aircraft (a MiG-21 Fishbed) would generally have "no impact" -- except "if friendly countries were flying some aircraft types that are normally considered hostile." Likewise, mistaking one type of friendly aircraft (an F-4 Phantom) for another (an A-4 Skyhawk) would normally not be a great problem unless "a hostile country was using an aircraft type that is normally considered friendly." The manual covers both well- known and relatively obscure systems, but does not include classified aircraft. Although an earlier edition of the manual was published without access restrictions, the current edition (2006) was not approved for public release. But as the government imposes publication restrictions on an ever larger set of records, the control system seems to be breaking down at the margins, permitting unauthorized access with increasing frequency. In this case, contrary to the restriction notice on the title page, the document does not reveal sensitive "technical or operational information." See "Visual Aircraft Recognition," U.S. Army Field Manual FM 3-01.80, January 2006 (413 pages in a very large 28 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-01-80.pdf Who did the proof reading on that document. Some of the errors are atrocious. I hope nobody was tested on 'user countries' Jaguar user countries 'Pakistan, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, USA' MiG-29 Fulcrum User countries 'Bahrain, Belgium, Denmark, Egypt, Greece, Indonesia, Israel, Netherlands, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, Venezuela' Same for the Mirage III/V and Orao user countries. The imagery is generally good. The only glaringly obvious mistake was that one of the images of the Su-15 Flagon is a J-8 Finback Su-27 Flanker User country 'Germany' The old mistake of 'Tu-26' for Tu-22M 'TU-26 Backfire' There is a lot of aircraft in that document that have retired or even never entered service. Yak-28 Su-15 They even have the Nimrod AEW3! |
#6
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
A little aware of capabilities of both types, I don't think mistaking
Fishbed with Fitter would have "no impact" on the troops. Fighter capabilities of Su-17 are poor, but MiG-21 cannot haul heavy air-to- ground ordnance (like H-29 missile) or a nuclear bomb, though I don't remember if the latter capability was well-advertised in the Warsaw Pact forces... Best regards, Jacek On the other hand, mistaking one type of hostile aircraft (a Su-17 Fitter) for another type of hostile aircraft (a MiG-21 Fishbed) would generally have "no impact" -- except "if friendly countries were flying some aircraft types that are normally considered hostile." |
#7
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
You guys are discussing one of the hottest subjects that totally
captivated the whole fighter community from the 1950's to the end of the Cold War - the identification, analysis, and comparisons of enemy (Russian and Chinese) fighters with our own - and in most cases the original investigations were a disaster until Boyd / Christie / Hillikar / Richioni, and others I am ashamed to have forgotten now pulled together the concept of Energy Maneuverability that started to review the defining characteristics of fighters (actually all aircraft) and in snap shots of time, configuration, power, speed, altitude, and AOA they could let you know fairly well how the aircraft was performing against your at the same conditions. Now the whole effort was wasn't always concise it took a whole lot of effort and actually until our pilots starting flying the enemy jets on a regular basis did we really learn what they did and how they performed. It may have been the greatest time in fighter history because it evolved with the spirit and skills of many people tempered all the time with real combat experience and subsequent exploitation. The Foreign Technology Division (FTD) tried very hard to get to the performance specifics of enemy fighters by modeling performance and it took an incredible effort because there were not the computers of today. Now almost all computer games have exact aero and performance data on the whole spectrum of western and eastern fighters so you can play with them on your laptop or Playstation. Some stories of course - the USAF flew the MiG-21 in early experiemnets and together with the restrictive Russian flight handbook considered it a piece of cake against the F-4 - then the Navy took a lok and Tom Cassidy the salty CEO today of the Predator company who always was a handful and SOB to boot took the MiG and started flying circles around the F-4 simply because he was flying it by the seat of his pants through touchy areas that had Russian designers worried (certain fuel state changed the CG radically and made it quite unpredictable for a bit) and ruled out for Russian pilots - that is they could not fly slower then 400 kph except to land. Cassiday took it to zero and flopped it around like an acrobatic toy, drilling the F-4's who were trying to flight the slow fight with a heavy wing loaded beast that would not do it. As time went on people recognized that the F-4 could beat the MiG-21 with power using the vertical and slice turning (cross-controlling using the adverse yaw and dihedral effects) to get your nose around. But US pilots flying the MiG's also assumed US properties like better missiles and better avionics so the MiG was at its best flown by our folks. Now going back to FTD and their many evolutions of bad assessments - the MiG-23 Flogger and Su-17 Fitter (swing wing) family of aircraft had more powerful engines but also many new restrictions - but in the pure state the resultant energy envelopes could be stagering so they were briefed that way yet in reality when the Isreali's (who were the first) started engaging them they performed worse then the MiG-21 although they could carry more and go faster longer. Many times the pure analytical assessment was way off - in fact it was not until the MiG-29 came around that anyone believed the geeks at FTD and in the MiG-29 they characteristically under-estimated it. In short - it was our great relationships with the Israeli and Pakistani Air Forces that perhaps provided the US the greatest amount of real combat data in how to beat the Russian fighters and their weapons and very little of what was learned was ever predicted correctly - so take that for what it is worth thinking about the future now. Our experience against North Vietnam with the beginning or Topgun and the USAF Aggressor Program was a turning point for all of this, a point in time so profound that it shaped ouir military capability. Only in the Iraq war since 2001 when the Army and USAF parted ways has the overcoat of air power been stripped from our troops - and if there is a thombstone for this decade of war to underscore our failure it will be in the Army's refusal to understand the vertical dimension and the Air Forces's half hearted effort to try to jerk them back to reality - the services all grabbed for their budgetary pots and gave up trying to sorth things out. Today it is a compl;etely different war and you see outposts and convoys standing alone with virtually little air cover and even less air presence because attack helicopters are too vulnerable, UAV's are too difficult and too few, AC-130's are grounded, and tactical fighters with pods and bombs make too big a splash for the restrictive ROE's and we keep loosing people to complex ambushes with no capacity to go after the attackers let along try to stop them before. The Army dumped all this and billions on the IED Task force that only grew in organizational size (4 star level no less JIEDDO) and not in the generation of solutions to IED's and ambushes and after five years have nothing to show for it except the continuing casualties - now the Congress will gut them but if it remains an Army war and not a SOF or Marine joint war nothting will change. The SOF and Marines have figured out the third dimension but they also need the right air vehicles for COIN. wrote in message ups.com... A little aware of capabilities of both types, I don't think mistaking Fishbed with Fitter would have "no impact" on the troops. Fighter capabilities of Su-17 are poor, but MiG-21 cannot haul heavy air-to- ground ordnance (like H-29 missile) or a nuclear bomb, though I don't remember if the latter capability was well-advertised in the Warsaw Pact forces... Best regards, Jacek On the other hand, mistaking one type of hostile aircraft (a Su-17 Fitter) for another type of hostile aircraft (a MiG-21 Fishbed) would generally have "no impact" -- except "if friendly countries were flying some aircraft types that are normally considered hostile." |
#9
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
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In article et, Tankfixer wrote: from Secrecy News www.fas.org VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION (FOUO) You do know what FOUO means ? See "Visual Aircraft Recognition," U.S. Army Field Manual FM 3-01.80, January 2006 (413 I guess I should put my 1983 copy up for historical purposes In a follow-up, FAS noted that there are errors in the guide concerning the dimensions of US aircraft. Not only was the recognition guide needlessly restricted, but that restriction may have prevented it from being accurate. D |
#10
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
In article .net,
mumbled --------- In article et, Tankfixer wrote: from Secrecy News www.fas.org VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION (FOUO) You do know what FOUO means ? See "Visual Aircraft Recognition," U.S. Army Field Manual FM 3-01.80, January 2006 (413 I guess I should put my 1983 copy up for historical purposes In a follow-up, FAS noted that there are errors in the guide concerning the dimensions of US aircraft. Not only was the recognition guide needlessly restricted, but that restriction may have prevented it from being accurate. Needlessly restricted ? That's odd as it can be ordered by any unit with a publications account with USAPA -- Usenetsaurus n. an early pedantic internet mammal, who survived on a diet of static text and cascading "threads." |
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