If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
First NASA form filed
And I sincerely hope it will be the last.
I landed at LSE (LaCrosse) on the way home from the twin cities last week. I landed on 18 and asked for a progressive taxi to the FBO, having never been there before. Controller told me to turn left on taxiway bravo down to the construction cones at the end. As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line. I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a pretty flagrant violation. After a split second of uncertainty I told tower I was holding at 21. She immediately told me to continue past in the chipper tone she had been using all along. Note that nobody had landed on or departed 21 during the entire time of my taxi so there was no loss of separation. I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the tower or let you know they're making a report, though. Though the logical side of my brain tells me that the chances of some enforcement action here would be slim, of course I filed the form regardless. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that matter (the chance of some investigation). |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
news As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line. I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a pretty flagrant violation. Some people may not like me saying this but I do not agree with the rule that you are cleared to cross all runways on your way to where you are taxiing. I think the default should be that they must explicitly tell you you are cleared to cross ANY runway and when you don't hear that you must stop and ask (or call and ask as you are approaching it). I am frequently given instructions which make me cross an active runway without explicitly saying so and I always ask before doing so and STILL look out for traffic on it before crossing. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
"Peter Gottlieb" wrote in message t... "Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message news As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line. I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a pretty flagrant violation. Some people may not like me saying this but I do not agree with the rule that you are cleared to cross all runways on your way to where you are taxiing. I think the default should be that they must explicitly tell you you are cleared to cross ANY runway and when you don't hear that you must stop and ask (or call and ask as you are approaching it). I am frequently given instructions which make me cross an active runway without explicitly saying so and I always ask before doing so and STILL look out for traffic on it before crossing. Nevertheless, this is not what the FARs say. However, the FARs do not prevent you from taking extra precautions such as these if you feel they are justified. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Paul,
Try out this AOPA Safety Foundation program it will answer all your questions. http://flash.aopa.org/asf/runwaySafety/ cb "Peter Gottlieb" wrote in message t... "Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message news As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line. I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a pretty flagrant violation. Some people may not like me saying this but I do not agree with the rule that you are cleared to cross all runways on your way to where you are taxiing. I think the default should be that they must explicitly tell you you are cleared to cross ANY runway and when you don't hear that you must stop and ask (or call and ask as you are approaching it). I am frequently given instructions which make me cross an active runway without explicitly saying so and I always ask before doing so and STILL look out for traffic on it before crossing. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Paul Folbrecht wrote:
I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even though no explicit instruction had been given ... You are incorrect. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that matter (the chance of some investigation). After some initial puzzlement (e.g. "Umm, what's the problem being reported here?"), I would hope they'd realize you need some remedial training on airport operations. In the meantime, have a look at AIM 4-3-18. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Brien K. Meehan wrote:
Paul Folbrecht wrote: I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even though no explicit instruction had been given ... You are incorrect. Good news to me if that's correct. However, a CFI I know (not my CFI) and a controller at another class D airport disagree with you. I should have mentioned this - this is why I decided to file the form. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that matter (the chance of some investigation). After some initial puzzlement (e.g. "Umm, what's the problem being reported here?"), I would hope they'd realize you need some remedial training on airport operations. Yeah, I guess you're right, it's painfully obvious that a taxi clearance implicitly grants permission to grant *active* runways, and I'm hopelessly clueless. In the meantime, have a look at AIM 4-3-18. I'll certainly do that. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
This reminds me of rules of water -- an unpowered boat has
right of way over powered. In other words, a sailboat has RoW crossing in front of a large oil tanker. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's a good idea. I agree with the original poster. Doesn't hurt to stop at the intersection and check -- just in case. There have been reported incidents and accidents where the tower forgot about the little aircraft taxiing around with jets coming in. No one is ever going to fault you for being careful. Tower/ground may be annoyed at delays in a busy airport, but being safe is better. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Ok, well, you are quite right - AIM 4-3-18.6 is entirely clear on this
scenario and I had no obligation to hold. Since this does seem to be a fairly common point of confusion, though, I'd suggest that your condescending comment wasn't exactly warranted. Good think the mailman hadn't come yet. :-) Now how do you retract a post from Usenet? Brien K. Meehan wrote: Paul Folbrecht wrote: I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even though no explicit instruction had been given ... You are incorrect. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that matter (the chance of some investigation). After some initial puzzlement (e.g. "Umm, what's the problem being reported here?"), I would hope they'd realize you need some remedial training on airport operations. In the meantime, have a look at AIM 4-3-18. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:04:52 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote: I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the tower or let you know they're making a report, though. You need to review the AIM regarding taxi clearances. In particular: =========================================== 4-3-18. Taxiing 6. In the absence of holding instructions, a clearance to "taxi to" any point other than an assigned takeoff runway is a clearance to cross ALL runways that intersect the taxi route to that point. ============================================ (emphasis mine) While some may argue that clearance to cross each and every runway should be given by ATC, at least in the US, that is NOT the case. --ron |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote ================ 4-3-18. Taxiing 6. In the absence of holding instructions, a clearance to "taxi to" any point other than an assigned takeoff runway is a clearance to cross ALL runways that intersect the taxi route to that point. ============================================ (emphasis mine) While some may argue that clearance to cross each and every runway should be given by ATC, at least in the US, that is NOT the case. --ron A trick here is, if you are given clearance to taxi to 31, but have to get to the opposite side of 31 to get to the taxiway that will take you to the departure end of 31, you may cross any other runways, but may not cross 31 without clearance. -- Jim in NC |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
NASA Jet Might Have Hit Record 5,000 Mph | Garrison Hilliard | Military Aviation | 0 | March 28th 04 04:03 PM |
Zero - specific questions | N-6 | Military Aviation | 30 | November 21st 03 02:44 AM |
Runway Incursion and NASA form | Koopas Ly | Piloting | 16 | November 12th 03 01:37 AM |
Runway Incursion and NASA form | steve mew | Piloting | 0 | November 10th 03 05:37 AM |
Moving violation..NASA form? | Nasir | Piloting | 47 | November 5th 03 07:56 PM |