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#161
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
On May 4, 8:15 am, Vince wrote:
Derek Lyons wrote: Vince wrote: Jack Linthicum wrote: On May 3, 4:12 pm, Paul Elliot wrote: Vince wrote: http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/ Vince is a lawyer, he thinks that if he says the same wrong thing over and over that will eventually make it true or the listeners will be asleep. The Air Force Cross given Major Anderson must have been a real goof by the Air Force and Kennedy. http://cworld.clemson.edu/Fall2000/12thday.htm There is nothing that prevents the president from giving a medal to an air force officer flying for the CIA You do know that the USAF operated U2's as well? yes of course but later Operational history Though both the Air Force and the Navy would eventually fly the U-2, it was originally a CIA operation. Due to the political implications of a military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep dipping".[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2 He was unquestionably engaged in an activity that was a violation of international law. He could not have been "ordered" on the mission. Um... Wrong. It's an "unlawful order" There is a difference between peacetime and wartime. The U-2 overflights violated international and domestic law. One of the reasons we have the CIA is to have a system for dealing with the need to engage in deliberate violations of international law. Vince In the military there is a concept which we have seen rather extensively in the past four years, it is called volunteering. October 14: A U-2 flies over western Cuba, the first Strategic Air Command (SAC) mission since authority for U-2 surveillance flights was transferred from the CIA to the Air Force on October 12. http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~hbf/missile.htm and As more U-2 missions, combined with HUMINT from inside Cuba, began to build a case for the possible installation of nuclear missiles, President Kennedy authorized an increase of U-2 missions over the island. This increase in aerial reconnaissance coverage was caveated with the limit that all future U-2 flights were to be conducted with USAF personnel and U-2's from the Strategic Air Command. (124) President Kennedy ordered the change from CIA to USAF missions in case there were any shootdowns or losses. His reasoning was that USAF pilots could be protected and treated as Prisoners of War versus CIA pilots who would be considered spies. (125) In the meantime, the JCS enlisted the support of additional aerial reconnaissance assets. Air Force RB-47's were brought in to fly ELINT missions around the periphery of the island along with USN F3D ELINT and EC-121 SIGINT aircraft. (126) 124) In 1956, SAC rejected Kelly Johnson's U-2 design with General LeMay quoted as saying he didn't need a glider with no guns or wheels and if he needed aerial reconnaissance he'd use one of his B-36's. By the time the U-2 program was approved and placed under SAC, he understood the importance of having the aircraft because the CIA's intelligence collection affected his bomber procurement. By 1960, SAC had its own fleet of 24 U-2's and was using them for peripheral SIGINT and PHOTINT missions. (125) Jackson, 116. (126) Lashmar, 191. http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/77ColdWarS....02byndu-2.htm I will keep this up until you stop making inaccurate statements |
#162
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
On May 4, 8:15 am, Vince wrote:
Derek Lyons wrote: Vince wrote: Jack Linthicum wrote: On May 3, 4:12 pm, Paul Elliot wrote: Vince wrote: http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/ Vince is a lawyer, he thinks that if he says the same wrong thing over and over that will eventually make it true or the listeners will be asleep. The Air Force Cross given Major Anderson must have been a real goof by the Air Force and Kennedy. http://cworld.clemson.edu/Fall2000/12thday.htm There is nothing that prevents the president from giving a medal to an air force officer flying for the CIA You do know that the USAF operated U2's as well? yes of course but later Operational history Though both the Air Force and the Navy would eventually fly the U-2, it was originally a CIA operation. Due to the political implications of a military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep dipping".[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2 He was unquestionably engaged in an activity that was a violation of international law. He could not have been "ordered" on the mission. Um... Wrong. It's an "unlawful order" There is a difference between peacetime and wartime. The U-2 overflights violated international and domestic law. One of the reasons we have the CIA is to have a system for dealing with the need to engage in deliberate violations of international law. Vince I presume all of the people on these flights were dressed as Maytag repairmen? Cold war shoot downs: Part one Air Classics, Apr 2001 by Larson, George A DETAILING AMERICAN AIRCRAFT LOSSES IN THE DEADLY GAME Of GATHERING INTELLIGENCE OVER THE SOVIET UNION The Cold War between the United States and the former Soviet Union can be traced to a diplomatic and arms race which started with a speech on 12 March 1947, in the United States. In this speech, before a Joint Session of the United States Congress, President Harry S Tman requested a one-time funding appropriation of $400,000,000 which Congress approved. The funds requested were to provide military assistance to a beleaguered Greek government to counter a Communist insurgency in that country. The term Cold War refers to an intense period of diplomatic and military hostility, often through client states, blowing up during the Cuban Missile Crisis which was a near nuclear confrontation between the United States and the Soviet Union. This confrontation did not end until the 1990s, with the tearing down of the Berlin Wall in Germany, and the break up of what President Ronald Reagan referred to as the "Evil Empire." During this Cold War, United States military aircraft flew thousands of covert reconnaissance intelligence flights. These intelligence collection flights gathered electronic signals and photographic intelligence to verify and identify strategic targets in the event of a nuclear war between the two Super Powers, and provide the Strategic Air Command's (SAC) bombers penetration routes into the Soviet Union. These missions were classified top secret and considered high risk military operations because of deliberate violations of Soviet air space. When and where possible, the Soviet Air Force sent up fighters to shadow US intelligence flights and to harass, intimidate, and shoot down these aircraft. Some of these aircraft crew members were captured by Soviet military forces, survived, and returned to US authorities. There have been, over a period of years, supposedly live sightings of American airmen at various confinement camps. more http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...04/ai_n8949287 |
#163
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
Daryl Hunt wrote:
"Vince" wrote in message ... TMOliver wrote: "Vince" wrote ... Spies get shot at all the time Doesn't make it a "battlefield" they were CIA flights I guess they forgot to tell you that those VFP-62 pilots were in Navy flight suits flying USNavy a/c - big bright stars and all - out of NAS Key West, JAX or off CVA decks. TMO the U-2 flights were cia No, Vince, they were Air Force. Although the data collected is "share" with the CIA and other branches of the Government. Operational history Though both the Air Force and the Navy would eventually fly the U-2, it was originally a CIA operation. Due to the political implications of a military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep dipping".[1] overflights were always CIA operations https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol4...hoto_Gap_2.htm there were ongoing "turf battles" over the COMOR and idealist programs Vince |
#164
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
On May 4, 8:31 am, Vince wrote:
Daryl Hunt wrote: "Vince" wrote in message ... TMOliver wrote: "Vince" wrote ... Spies get shot at all the time Doesn't make it a "battlefield" they were CIA flights I guess they forgot to tell you that those VFP-62 pilots were in Navy flight suits flying USNavy a/c - big bright stars and all - out of NAS Key West, JAX or off CVA decks. TMO the U-2 flights were cia No, Vince, they were Air Force. Although the data collected is "share" with the CIA and other branches of the Government. Operational history Though both the Air Force and the Navy would eventually fly the U-2, it was originally a CIA operation. Due to the political implications of a military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep dipping".[1] overflights were always CIA operations https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol4...hoto_Gap_2.htm there were ongoing "turf battles" over the COMOR and idealist programs Vince In the military there is a concept which we have seen rather extensively in the past four years, it is called volunteering. October 14: A U-2 flies over western Cuba, the first Strategic Air Command (SAC) mission since authority for U-2 surveillance flights was transferred from the CIA to the Air Force on October 12. http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~hbf/missile.htm and As more U-2 missions, combined with HUMINT from inside Cuba, began to build a case for the possible installation of nuclear missiles, President Kennedy authorized an increase of U-2 missions over the island. This increase in aerial reconnaissance coverage was caveated with the limit that all future U-2 flights were to be conducted with USAF personnel and U-2's from the Strategic Air Command. (124) President Kennedy ordered the change from CIA to USAF missions in case there were any shootdowns or losses. His reasoning was that USAF pilots could be protected and treated as Prisoners of War versus CIA pilots who would be considered spies. (125) In the meantime, the JCS enlisted the support of additional aerial reconnaissance assets. Air Force RB-47's were brought in to fly ELINT missions around the periphery of the island along with USN F3D ELINT and EC-121 SIGINT aircraft. (126) 124) In 1956, SAC rejected Kelly Johnson's U-2 design with General LeMay quoted as saying he didn't need a glider with no guns or wheels and if he needed aerial reconnaissance he'd use one of his B-36's. By the time the U-2 program was approved and placed under SAC, he understood the importance of having the aircraft because the CIA's intelligence collection affected his bomber procurement. By 1960, SAC had its own fleet of 24 U-2's and was using them for peripheral SIGINT and PHOTINT missions. (125) Jackson, 116. (126) Lashmar, 191. http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/77ColdWarS....02byndu-2.htm I will keep this up until you stop making inaccurate statements |
#165
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 7:37 am, Vince wrote: Tankfixer wrote: In article , mumbled TMOliver wrote: "Vince" wrote ... Spies get shot at all the time Doesn't make it a "battlefield" they were CIA flights I guess they forgot to tell you that those VFP-62 pilots were in Navy flight suits flying USNavy a/c - big bright stars and all - out of NAS Key West, JAX or off CVA decks. TMO the U-2 flights were cia Yes, but did they take the photo's of the SA-2 sites from under 500 feet and in excess of 700 mph ? No, they didn't that is correct, but not the point of the discussion the Military is much better equipped and focused on battlefield reconnaissance than the CIA The U-2 was overwhelmingly a CIA project at that time. Part of the reason was that CIA missions violated the domestic or municipal law of the countries we were overflying. A U-2 pilot on an overflight was a spy and could be shot quite legally. No one could be "ordered" on such a mission. The low level flights were different. They were clearly belligerent acts by the US armed forces. As an act of war, anyone shot down was a POW. Vince In the military there is a concept which we have seen rather extensively in the past four years, it is called volunteering. October 14: A U-2 flies over western Cuba, the first Strategic Air Command (SAC) mission since authority for U-2 surveillance flights was transferred from the CIA to the Air Force on October 12. http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~hbf/missile.htm jane Franklin is a respectable source on Cuba but even her chronolgy points out October 15: Analyzing U-2 photographs taken a day earlier, the CIA informs National Security Adviser McGeorge Bundy that the Soviet Union is constructing sites for intermediate-range nuclear missiles in Cuba. The report is formt he CIA, not the air force and As more U-2 missions, combined with HUMINT from inside Cuba, began to build a case for the possible installation of nuclear missiles, President Kennedy authorized an increase of U-2 missions over the island. This increase in aerial reconnaissance coverage was caveated with the limit that all future U-2 flights were to be conducted with USAF personnel and U-2's from the Strategic Air Command. (124) President Kennedy ordered the change from CIA to USAF missions in case there were any shootdowns or losses. His reasoning was that USAF pilots could be protected and treated as Prisoners of War versus CIA pilots who would be considered spies. (125) the problems is that the citation 125 is to Jackson, Robert. High Cold War: Strategic Air Reconnaissance and the Electronic Intelligence War. Somerset: Patrick Stephens Limited, 1998. which is not a primary source the Avalon project also contains no such document. Finally as a matter of law the reasoning is ridiculous. Military officers in peacetime are still spies. They were still CIA "flights" conducted by USAF people Vince |
#166
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 8:15 am, Vince wrote: Derek Lyons wrote: Vince wrote: Jack Linthicum wrote: On May 3, 4:12 pm, Paul Elliot wrote: Vince wrote: http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/ Vince is a lawyer, he thinks that if he says the same wrong thing over and over that will eventually make it true or the listeners will be asleep. The Air Force Cross given Major Anderson must have been a real goof by the Air Force and Kennedy. http://cworld.clemson.edu/Fall2000/12thday.htm There is nothing that prevents the president from giving a medal to an air force officer flying for the CIA You do know that the USAF operated U2's as well? yes of course but later Operational history Though both the Air Force and the Navy would eventually fly the U-2, it was originally a CIA operation. Due to the political implications of a military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep dipping".[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2 He was unquestionably engaged in an activity that was a violation of international law. He could not have been "ordered" on the mission. Um... Wrong. It's an "unlawful order" There is a difference between peacetime and wartime. The U-2 overflights violated international and domestic law. One of the reasons we have the CIA is to have a system for dealing with the need to engage in deliberate violations of international law. Vince I presume all of the people on these flights were dressed as Maytag repairmen? Cold war shoot downs: Part one Air Classics, Apr 2001 by Larson, George A DETAILING AMERICAN AIRCRAFT LOSSES IN THE DEADLY GAME Of GATHERING INTELLIGENCE OVER THE SOVIET UNION The Cold War between the United States and the former Soviet Union can be traced to a diplomatic and arms race which started with a speech on 12 March 1947, in the United States. In this speech, before a Joint Session of the United States Congress, President Harry S Tman requested a one-time funding appropriation of $400,000,000 which Congress approved. The funds requested were to provide military assistance to a beleaguered Greek government to counter a Communist insurgency in that country. The term Cold War refers to an intense period of diplomatic and military hostility, often through client states, blowing up during the Cuban Missile Crisis which was a near nuclear confrontation between the United States and the Soviet Union. This confrontation did not end until the 1990s, with the tearing down of the Berlin Wall in Germany, and the break up of what President Ronald Reagan referred to as the "Evil Empire." During this Cold War, United States military aircraft flew thousands of covert reconnaissance intelligence flights. These intelligence collection flights gathered electronic signals and photographic intelligence to verify and identify strategic targets in the event of a nuclear war between the two Super Powers, and provide the Strategic Air Command's (SAC) bombers penetration routes into the Soviet Union. These missions were classified top secret and considered high risk military operations because of deliberate violations of Soviet air space. When and where possible, the Soviet Air Force sent up fighters to shadow US intelligence flights and to harass, intimidate, and shoot down these aircraft. Some of these aircraft crew members were captured by Soviet military forces, survived, and returned to US authorities. There have been, over a period of years, supposedly live sightings of American airmen at various confinement camps. more http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...04/ai_n8949287 Better give names dates and places of deliberate overflights of territory, not cruisng past the border (airspace) Vince |
#167
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
On May 4, 8:48 am, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote: On May 4, 8:15 am, Vince wrote: Derek Lyons wrote: Vince wrote: Jack Linthicum wrote: On May 3, 4:12 pm, Paul Elliot wrote: Vince wrote: http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/ Vince is a lawyer, he thinks that if he says the same wrong thing over and over that will eventually make it true or the listeners will be asleep. The Air Force Cross given Major Anderson must have been a real goof by the Air Force and Kennedy. http://cworld.clemson.edu/Fall2000/12thday.htm There is nothing that prevents the president from giving a medal to an air force officer flying for the CIA You do know that the USAF operated U2's as well? yes of course but later Operational history Though both the Air Force and the Navy would eventually fly the U-2, it was originally a CIA operation. Due to the political implications of a military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep dipping".[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2 He was unquestionably engaged in an activity that was a violation of international law. He could not have been "ordered" on the mission. Um... Wrong. It's an "unlawful order" There is a difference between peacetime and wartime. The U-2 overflights violated international and domestic law. One of the reasons we have the CIA is to have a system for dealing with the need to engage in deliberate violations of international law. Vince I presume all of the people on these flights were dressed as Maytag repairmen? Cold war shoot downs: Part one Air Classics, Apr 2001 by Larson, George A DETAILING AMERICAN AIRCRAFT LOSSES IN THE DEADLY GAME Of GATHERING INTELLIGENCE OVER THE SOVIET UNION The Cold War between the United States and the former Soviet Union can be traced to a diplomatic and arms race which started with a speech on 12 March 1947, in the United States. In this speech, before a Joint Session of the United States Congress, President Harry S Tman requested a one-time funding appropriation of $400,000,000 which Congress approved. The funds requested were to provide military assistance to a beleaguered Greek government to counter a Communist insurgency in that country. The term Cold War refers to an intense period of diplomatic and military hostility, often through client states, blowing up during the Cuban Missile Crisis which was a near nuclear confrontation between the United States and the Soviet Union. This confrontation did not end until the 1990s, with the tearing down of the Berlin Wall in Germany, and the break up of what President Ronald Reagan referred to as the "Evil Empire." During this Cold War, United States military aircraft flew thousands of covert reconnaissance intelligence flights. These intelligence collection flights gathered electronic signals and photographic intelligence to verify and identify strategic targets in the event of a nuclear war between the two Super Powers, and provide the Strategic Air Command's (SAC) bombers penetration routes into the Soviet Union. These missions were classified top secret and considered high risk military operations because of deliberate violations of Soviet air space. When and where possible, the Soviet Air Force sent up fighters to shadow US intelligence flights and to harass, intimidate, and shoot down these aircraft. Some of these aircraft crew members were captured by Soviet military forces, survived, and returned to US authorities. There have been, over a period of years, supposedly live sightings of American airmen at various confinement camps. more http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...04/ai_n8949287 Better give names dates and places of deliberate overflights of territory, not cruisng past the border (airspace) Vince Vince, you are lost. You can fiddle with whether a document is legit or not and then turn around and say because a series of photographs are examined at a CIA facility, actually manned by both CIA and Pentagon people, that makes it a CIA job. Curtis Lemay made sure the Strategic Air Command and secondarily the U.S. Air Force knew the pilot that got those photos was a SAC pilot. Still need to explain all those F8Us that got shot at in a non-battlefield. Around noon that day (October 27) a Lockheed U-2 piloted by Rudolph Anderson was shot down by an SA-2 Guideline SAM emplacement, increasing the stress in negotiations between the USSR and the U.S. It was later learned that the decision to fire was made locally by a Soviet commander on his own authority, although exactly who this was is a matter of some debate. Later that day, at about 3:41 p.m., several F8U Crusader aircraft on low-level recce missions were fired upon, and one was hit by a 37 mm shell but managed to return to base. |
#168
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
"Tex Houston" wrote in message .. . "TMOliver" wrote in message ... As for the RB-66's use in combat photo recon, the bird performed didn't last long in that role (just as it had not done well as a bomber), replaced quickly by far more survivable RF4s. The RB-66 was unsuited for low level battlefield recon, too slow (and to the air crew who flew them sharing with the A3 and EA3s the dicey escape method, down, instead of the more conventional upward ejection). The RB-57s were developed to do what the RB-66 did, while the Navy's last version of a similar a/c, the EA3, flew on for many years, longer than the attempt to salvage the Navy's A-5 program with the RA5C. TMO Which model A3 had ejection seats? None, and I'll admit to the syntax above being a bit confusing. |
#169
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 8:48 am, Vince wrote: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...04/ai_n8949287 Better give names dates and places of deliberate overflights of territory, not cruisng past the border (airspace) Vince Vince, you are lost. You can fiddle with whether a document is legit or not and then turn around and say because a series of photographs are examined at a CIA facility, actually manned by both CIA and Pentagon people, that makes it a CIA job. Curtis Lemay made sure the Strategic Air Command and secondarily the U.S. Air Force knew the pilot that got those photos was a SAC pilot. it was a CIA flight part of a long standing CIA operation Still need to explain all those F8Us that got shot at in a non-battlefield. This is a separate issue Francis Gary Powers was not in a battlefield Around noon that day (October 27) a Lockheed U-2 piloted by Rudolph Anderson was shot down by an SA-2 Guideline SAM emplacement, increasing the stress in negotiations between the USSR and the U.S. It was later learned that the decision to fire was made locally by a Soviet commander on his own authority, although exactly who this was is a matter of some debate. Why should a "battlefield" shoot increase stress? the reason is that its not a battlefield Later that day, at about 3:41 p.m., several F8U Crusader aircraft on low-level recce missions were fired upon, and one was hit by a 37 mm shell but managed to return to base. Still not a "battlefield" Vince |
#170
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VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION
"Vince" wrote in message
... Tankfixer wrote: In article , mumbled TMOliver wrote: "Vince" wrote ... Spies get shot at all the time Doesn't make it a "battlefield" they were CIA flights I guess they forgot to tell you that those VFP-62 pilots were in Navy flight suits flying USNavy a/c - big bright stars and all - out of NAS Key West, JAX or off CVA decks. TMO the U-2 flights were cia Yes, but did they take the photo's of the SA-2 sites from under 500 feet and in excess of 700 mph ? No, they didn't that is correct, but not the point of the discussion the Military is much better equipped and focused on battlefield reconnaissance than the CIA The U-2 was overwhelmingly a CIA project at that time. Part of the reason was that CIA missions violated the domestic or municipal law of the countries we were overflying. A U-2 pilot on an overflight was a spy and could be shot quite legally. No one could be "ordered" on such a mission. The low level flights were different. They were clearly belligerent acts by the US armed forces. As an act of war, anyone shot down was a POW. Vince The argument could be made that if you fly as high as a U-2, especially back in the early days, were you really in national airspace anyway? According to the FAI (Int'l Aeronautical Federation) near-space starts at 75,000 feet, and according to Wiki the U-2R has a service ceiling of 90,000 feet. To the best of my knowledge there isn't even any accepted altitude below which one is in territorial airspace. Clearly there sort of must be such an altitude, because nobody reasonably suggests that a satellite at 250 km is violating anything. Also, you can't necessarily say that airspace goes up to the level that balloons can reach or suborbital craft can reach or airfoils can maintain lift, because the definition of the maximum limits of a territorial sea is 12 miles, which in this day and age is highly artificial also. AHS |
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