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#1
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Blue Ridge Crash
A long time ago I visited a soaring site in Israel. The signal the glider pilots used to signal readiness to the tow pilot was not waving the rudder like in the USA, but opening and closing the spoilers/breaks twice. I was told one of the reasons for this was to make sure they were closed on TO. -- Roberto Waltman This above post by Mr Waltman makes alot of sense to me and I would like to see this procedure looked at closely. I am also a big fan of launching with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years with good results. Another thing I have trained myself to do is; When the towplane / glider unit gets airborne and is in a steady state of climb, I glance out to the left wing and look at the spoilers. It is easy to do and your focus distance does not change much. Another big issue for me is what really caused this accident, it sounds like the rope or weak link broke. I don't think the rope should come apart on a guy just because he has his spoilers out and the tow is slowly progressing. I've taken off in Parowan in my ASW-20 full of water with the spoilers unlocked. I didn't think much of it untill the tow pilot called and remarked about all the sink we were flying through! We all make mistakes. If the tug cannot climb and has to turn the glider loose, so be it. if the tow starts going squirrily and the tow pilot is getting scared, turn the glider loose. But it should be a decision made by the pilots, not a P.O.S. rope break. Further more I think we need to all be using High Quality ropes and weak links, and give up on that polypro. The poly pro comes unthreaded,untied, it is EASILY damaged, it looks like hell after only a few tows. Look on the Wings and Wheels web page and look at the rope TOST puts out and the Dacron Rope. Here in Telluride we ONLY use Dacron ropes because they are reliable. If you have a rope break here, early on the tow, it is really bad news. Heck it's bad news anywhere to have a rope break low. It can be FATAL . lets get rid of those poly ropes. And in the long run the Hi Quality ropes ARE cheaper, and when they are used up, you can use them for other things, not just throw them away. How green is that? Nick Kennedy Grob Twin Astir TF LS-6 XS |
#2
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Blue Ridge Crash
At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote:
I am also a big fan of launchin with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit good results. Nick Kennedy Grob Twin Astir TF LS-6 XS Consider the two scenarios. 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release. You drop a wing pull off, start again. 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider to bits. Which one makes you feel more of an idiot? What does it say in your flight manual bout launching? Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual? PF |
#3
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Blue Ridge Crash
On Apr 15, 3:33*am, Peter F wrote:
At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote: I am also a big fan of launchin with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit good results. Nick Kennedy Grob Twin Astir TF LS-6 *XS Consider the two scenarios. 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release. You drop a wing pull off, start again. 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider to bits. Which one makes you feel more of an idiot? What does it say in your flight manual bout launching? Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual? PF Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can. Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? What happens at 100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release? |
#4
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Blue Ridge Crash
On Apr 15, 5:33*am, Peter F wrote:
At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote: I am also a big fan of launchin with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit good results. Nick Kennedy Grob Twin Astir TF LS-6 *XS Consider the two scenarios. 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release. You drop a wing pull off, start again. 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider to bits. Which one makes you feel more of an idiot? What does it say in your flight manual bout launching? Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual? PF Or, you read the flight manual which says "Additional aileron effectiveness during initial takeoff roll may be achieved by extending airbrakes, retract airbrakes before leaving ground" [LS4 flight manual p 4-8]. So in that case, should you feel like an idiot because you dropped the wing for NOT following this advice? There's no need to get snarky about this. It's a tough problem that deserves reasoned discussion. And, unfortunately, there's probably not one single approach that works. Different aircraft have different traps, and the preflight routine needs to be adapted accordingly. For example, I teach somewhat different routines with students in the 2-33 vs. the Grob 103 based on the peculiarities of each and the checklists we've established. Ultimately, the preflight checklist for each aircraft needs to be followed carefull. It's that discipline of following checklists and anticipating the 2-3 critical problems that happen early in the tow that needs to be drilled home. My 0.02. P3 |
#5
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Blue Ridge Crash
Nick makes an excellent point. Using substandard rope and weak links
invites disaster. On the topic of spoilers open on the takeoff roll, isn't the problem having them in the wrong configuration for a particular glider? How about a simple mechanical spoiler locked indicator? Run a Bowden cable from the spoiler pushrod in the fuselage to a red button on top of the glare shield directly in the pilots line of sight. With the spoilers closed and locked, the button would be flush with the glare shield. Unlocked, it would protrude. As the spoilers open it would protrude further providing a % open indication. Yes, if pilots would just turn their head, the spoilers themselves make a great 'indicator' but it's clear from the accident record they don't do that. On Apr 14, 9:59*pm, Nick Kennedy wrote: A long time ago I visited a soaring site in Israel. *The signal the glider pilots used to signal readiness to the tow pilot was not waving the rudder like in the USA, but opening and closing the spoilers/breaks twice. I was told one of the reasons for this was to make sure they were closed on TO. -- Roberto Waltman This above post by Mr Waltman makes alot of sense to me and I would like to see this procedure *looked at closely. I am also a big fan of launching with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years with good results. Another thing I have trained myself to do is; When the towplane / glider unit gets airborne and is in a steady state of climb, I glance out to the left wing and look at the spoilers. *It is easy to do and your focus distance does not change much. Another big issue for me is what really caused this accident, it sounds like the rope or weak link broke. *I don't think the rope should come apart on a guy just because he has his spoilers out and the tow is slowly progressing. I've taken off in Parowan in my ASW-20 full of water with the spoilers unlocked. *I didn't think much of it untill the tow pilot called and remarked about all the sink we were flying through! We all make mistakes. *If the tug cannot climb and has to turn the glider loose, so be it. *if the tow starts going squirrily and the tow pilot is getting scared, turn the glider loose. *But it should be a decision made by the pilots, not a P.O.S. rope break. Further more I think we need to all be using High Quality ropes and weak links, and give up on that polypro. The poly pro comes unthreaded,untied, it is EASILY damaged, it looks like hell after only a few tows. *Look on the Wings and Wheels web page and look at the rope TOST puts out and the Dacron Rope. *Here in Telluride we ONLY use Dacron ropes because they are reliable. If you have a rope break here, early on the tow, it is really bad news. *Heck it's bad news anywhere to have a rope break low. It can be FATAL . lets get rid of those poly ropes. And in the long run the Hi Quality ropes ARE cheaper, and when they are used up, you can use them for other things, not just throw them away. How green is that? Nick Kennedy Grob Twin Astir TF LS-6 *XS |
#6
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Blue Ridge Crash
At 09:33 15 April 2011, Peter F wrote:
At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote: I am also a big fan of launchin with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit good results. Nick Kennedy Grob Twin Astir TF LS-6 XS Consider the two scenarios. 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release. You drop a wing pull off, start again. 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider to bits. Which one makes you feel more of an idiot? What does it say in your flight manual bout launching? Have you actually bothered to read that bit of the manual? PF I think we should possibly make a distinction between types of launch. I normally winch launch, done many thousands of 'em, and there is only one place my left hand is, and that is holding the release. The accident happens too quickly to be able to grab for it, and it has never resulted in an inadvertant release. When the accident happens it is always a badly damaged glider, often injuries, sometimes worse. There may be a little more time on aerotow, but personally I still hold the release, letting go to move flaps if fitted, when I'm happy with lateral control. Dave |
#7
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Blue Ridge Crash
On 4/15/2011 2:33 AM, Peter F wrote:
At 03:59 15 April 2011, Nick Kennedy wrote: I am also a big fan of launchin with the spoilers open and have been doing it now for several years wit good results. Nick Kennedy Grob Twin Astir TF LS-6 XS Consider the two scenarios. 1) You start the launch with the brakes locked, your hand on the release. You drop a wing pull off, start again. 2) You start the launch with you hand on the open airbrakes, not on the release. You drop a wing, can't pull off, groundloop, smash your glider to bits. Which one makes you feel more of an idiot? I think it's idiotic to be towing in an area where dropping a wing will result in a ground loop, and that resulting groundloop will "smash your glider to bits". But let's say you've already made those mistakes, and consider scenario #3: You start the launch with your hand on the open airbrakes, not on the release. You DON'T drop a wing because the open spoilers give you much better control, you DON'T pull off, you DON'T groundloop, and you DON'T smash your glider to bits. In fact, the launch proceeds smoothly, no drama, nobody in danger or inconvenienced. I used open spoilers for the last few years I owned my ASW 20, and I never dropped a wing once I started doing that; before then, I did drop a wing ocasionally. I NEVER ground looped, however, because the tip skid just slid along the pavement. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz |
#8
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Blue Ridge Crash
On Apr 15, 9:31*am, bildan wrote:
How about a simple mechanical spoiler locked indicator? I had unlocked airbrakes suck open once at lift-off when I was new to my ASW-19b. Not an experience I wished to repeat. I painted red the forward part of the airbrake control rod that is concealed in the side wall when the brakes are locked but exposed when the brakes are closed but no locked. It made an effective warning flag and required no modification to a certificated flight control system. Then I learned the advantages of using brakes during takeoff roll and didn't need the warning any more. On my 28 I enabled the 302 airbrake warning. Andy |
#9
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Blue Ridge Crash
On 4/15/2011 1:18 PM, David Salmon wrote:
I think we should possibly make a distinction between types of launch. I normally winch launch, done many thousands of 'em, and there is only one place my left hand is, and that is holding the release. The accident happens too quickly to be able to grab for it, I'm a winch newbie (about 35) but have about 2000 aero tows. One of our (US) club instructors also teaches at Cambridge (UK) and what David says is what he taught all of us. For a winch launch, the hand is ON the release because when things go wrong, they go wrong quickly - and you never pick up a dropping wing on the ground roll, for example - you release. For aero tows, we keep our hand NEAR the release but not on it. Tony V. |
#10
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Blue Ridge Crash
On Apr 16, 2:03*am, Dan Marotta wrote:
Maybe you can't let go of the spoiler handle and release, but I can. Do you actually tow with your hand on the release? *What happens at 100 feet when you hit a good bump and accidentally release? Er ... you land safely? Why would the answer be any different than what happens if the rope breaks or the towplane engine quits? |
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