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#251
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 18, 11:10*am, delboy wrote:
I am a trained and qualified scientist in a different field, so I am used to evaluating data. I think I can spot dodgy and biased data being used for political purposes when I see it. History is littered with with eminent scientists (in one field) making pronouncements about a different field, and falling flat on their faces. |
#252
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 18, 5:44*am, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Jan 18, 11:10*am, delboy wrote: *I am a trained and qualified scientist in a different field, so I am used to evaluating data. I think I can spot dodgy and biased data being used for political purposes when I see it. History is littered with with eminent scientists (in one field) making pronouncements about a different field, and falling flat on their faces. Or more a more recently example would be eminent scientists cooking the books in their own field for personal reasons or the CAUSE. It played out like assembling a jigsaw puzzle. You start with a pile of factual seemly unrelated pieces and try to put them together. Some fit but others resist assembly and for those you get out the scissors. The pieces the scissors can't handle you hide under the rug. Anyone poking about under rugs is subject to swift attack and if they were not part of the assembly team it isn't going to be pretty. Only a fool would question that there has been global warming. You only need to check the earths temperature history over the last 400,000 years to see that it has gone up 5 times. Hmm but wait that means it has also gone down 4 times. Never mind that lets just change the name from global warming or cooling to climate change. Now who could argue with that since climate has been changing for as long as records exist. Problem solved now we can get on with imposing limits on everyone and redistributing wealth. Its for the kids you know. Thank God the scientists came up with this one or the politicians would have had to invented it. Now they only have to mix the cool- aid.. |
#253
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On 18 Jan, 13:29, Gary Evans wrote:
On Jan 18, 5:44*am, Tom Gardner wrote: On Jan 18, 11:10*am, delboy wrote: *I am a trained and qualified scientist in a different field, so I am used to evaluating data. I think I can spot dodgy and biased data being used for political purposes when I see it. History is littered with with eminent scientists (in one field) making pronouncements about a different field, and falling flat on their faces. Or more a more recently example would be eminent scientists cooking the books in their own field for personal reasons or the CAUSE. It played out like assembling a jigsaw puzzle. You start with a pile of factual seemly unrelated pieces and try to put them together. Some fit but others resist assembly and for those you get out the scissors. The pieces the scissors can't handle you hide under the rug. Anyone poking about under rugs is subject to swift attack and if they were not part of the assembly team it isn't going to be pretty. Only a fool would question that there has been global warming. You only need to check the earths temperature history over the last 400,000 years to see that it has gone up 5 times. Hmm but wait that means it has also gone down 4 times. Never mind that lets just change the name from global warming or cooling to climate change. Now who could argue with that since climate has been changing for as long as records exist. Problem solved now we can get on with imposing limits on everyone and redistributing wealth. Its for the kids you know. Thank God the scientists came up with this one or the politicians would have had to invented it. Now they only have to mix the cool- aid.. You can statistically prove almost anything you want to by carefully selecting your data, and ignoring any data that doesn't fit your model. Politics and science are a dangerous mix. Hitler's Germany used genetics to justify mass murder. Derek Copeland |
#254
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 18, 2:46*pm, delboy wrote:
... Hitler's Germany ... Phew. End of topic. Far too much entropy around here anyway |
#255
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 18, 2:44*am, delboy wrote:
... Maybe the 'natural' concentration of CO2 already gives the maximum greenhouse effect and increasing it causes little or no difference. ... Clearly no. Consider Venus. -- FF |
#256
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
Just had a look at Rutan's site. He gives prominent display to the
Oregon Institute of Science in Cave Junction or some such. I am sure it exists, but Cave Junction has a population of ~3000. And the 3 authors have no credentials at all. There are lots of charts and graphs in the article though. Mark |
#257
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 18, 12:44*pm, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Jan 18, 11:10*am, delboy wrote: *I am a trained and qualified scientist in a different field, so I am used to evaluating data. I think I can spot dodgy and biased data being used for political purposes when I see it. History is littered with with eminent scientists (in one field) making pronouncements about a different field, and falling flat on their faces. History is also littered with quaint and misguided groups and individuals who have held all sorts of strange beliefs which have later been proved to be mistaken. There was a large group of people (and still are I understand) who believed the earth was flat and produced scientific avidence to prove it. A large number of people, surported by the church believed the sun orbited the earth, King Canute believed he could order the tide to stop coming in. The scientific community at one time believed that you could tell if a woman was a witch by throwing her into water. All these views are now considered crazy. The modern equivalent is of course the climate scientists who ignore the fact that this planet has been heating up and cooling down for millions of years without our help, and also seem unable to understand that all life is carbon and there is no way to get rid of it. I have just realised that these scientists are crazy earlier than most, everyone else will of course catch up if the Mayan End of the World does not get them. Breaking news, our climate is driven by the sun, which we now know does not orbit the earth, quite how the climatic scientist propose to fit a switch on something 93 million miles away defeats me, but I suppose it keeps them in work, good job to have, one where you can never suceed. |
#258
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On 18 Jan, 23:38, Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
On Jan 18, 2:44*am, delboy wrote: ... Maybe the 'natural' concentration of CO2 already gives the maximum greenhouse effect and increasing it causes little or no difference. ... Clearly no. Consider Venus. Venus is much closer to the Sun, so much hotter for that reason. Its atmosphere is 97% Carbon Dioxide with smaller concentrations of sulphuric acid, and chlorine and fluorine compounds. The concentration of CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere is currently only 387 ppm (parts per million), even with carbon emissions. The atmosphere of the Earth may have had much higher levels of CO2 in its early history, but the evolution of plant life tied most of the Carbon up in biomass, and converted CO2 to Oxygen in the atmosphere, fortunately for us oxygen breathing animals. Even with these higher CO2 levels, the Earth most have been cool enough to allow Carbon and water based life to form. Just a worrying thought. We humans breathe in the oxygen in the air and breathe out CO2. We also give out methane (CH4) which is also a potent greenhouse gas. Will Governments want to close us down as well as the fossil fuel power stations? Or will we be taxed on our entire carbon footprint? Frightening! Derek Copeland |
#259
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
Tom Gardner wrote:
On Jan 18, 2:46 pm, delboy wrote: ... Hitler's Germany ... Phew. End of topic. Far too much entropy around here anyway Yep, "game over" when Hitler comes up. I'm out of here. People interested in my views can contact me privately. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/ -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly |
#260
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 17, 7:42*am, delboy wrote:
On 17 Jan, 08:04, Tom Gardner wrote: After a month in a mini ice age, the UK winter weather has become its normal mild and moist self, so the Gulf Stream must still be working. So sorry polar bears, your habitat range won't be extending to the British Isles yet! Derek Copeland I wrote nothing whatsoever that would justify your comment, nor did I imply it. Your attempt to associate me with such ignorant concepts (not knowing the difference between climate and weather) is offensive. *Please do not do it again*. Unfortunately this kind of misrepresentation and cherry-picking data appears to be all too prevalent in the denialist community. Anybody reading your comments with an open mind would start to doubt your sincerity. It does the denialist cause no good whatsoever.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Being a bit touchy aren't we Tom? If you want to present AGW/Climate Change as a religion (which it seems to have become), then I am neither a believer or a disbeliever (denialist), but an agnostic. The latest data on World temperatures, which show a slight cooling, do not correlate with the theory, so that is why. Not according to people who actually track that sort of thing: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/?report=global#gtemp Possibly you were thinking of data sets that begin with the El Nino event of 1998-99? If you use that as your starting point then it biases the result to show fairly flat temperatures from 1998 - 2008, just like you could use it to exaggerate increasing temperatures from 1989 1999. I think some people call that 'cherry picking' the data. For myself, I don't put much stock in the currently available database of direct temperature measurements, and less stock in proxies. In both cases the sampling problem looms large. I do trust the measurements of atmospheric gases from Mauna Loa and the measurements of solar activity. Those are much easier to sample. If one does accept direct temperature measurement and pre-Mauna Loa atmospheric gas measurements and proxies like these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:In...ure_Record.png What we see is a temperature rise of ~ 0.7 degrees Celsius during the 20th century. One can explain that as follows: Temperatures rose quickly at the end of the 19th century due to methane released by oil exploitation (early on there was no market for natural gas so gas wells were typically left uncapped). As methane has a fairly low half life in the atmosphere (12 years) temperatures dropped quickly until 1910 or so at which point carbon emissions from industrial growth caused a continuous rise through WWII. Then very rapid industrial growth and coal burning in particular, especially to power the world's electrical grids loaded the atmosphere with aerosols that offset the increased greenhouse effect of the coincurrently released carbon dioxide until pollution abatement came into vogue in the 1970s. This pollution abatement concentrated on particulates and sulfur compounds, but ignored carbon dioxide. As particulates continued to drop out of the atmosphere and carbon- dioxide rose so did temperatures from then until now, with a noted acceleration after German reunification produced a cleanup of East German Industry. Other explanations are possible. -- FF |
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