The effects of Ethanol on...

Not wanting to restart the previous discussion on how ethanol is made and
how much is in which fuel, available where, the question I am interested in
is; does anyone know what effects ethanol will have on:
tanks - metal / composite
fuel systems - tubing/electric pumps/carbys
Engine - serviceability issues/foreseeable maintenance conerns

The EAA is obviously concerned about ethanol in aviation fuel otherwise they
would not have fought the introduction(according to the EAA mag). This is
defintiely a concern for all aviators, not just the US.

If there is going to be 'no option' in the future (other than running on
Avgas or Diesel), then we need to start educating the masses on what effects
it will have, especially the home maintainers.

I understand that ethanol will degrade some resins, which could throw a
spanner in the works for the wet wings like the Jabiru. Though it could just
as likely eat away at sloshing compounds etc.

Cheers
Chris

Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny

seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?

not a pilot or homebuilder, so I can't comment on the original post.

I remember some time ago during the 70's gas crunch there was talk of
selling straight ethanol for fuel. issues then were that a lot of plastics
(maybe rubbers too?) couldn't handle it.

what metals cant handle ethanol? not the water absorbed by ethanol, but
ethanol itself?

in the future I'll be looking into ethanol for fuel for small gas engines,
and work my way up to cars and such, so it will be a moot point.
"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny

AOPA Pilot has a pretty good story on 100LL and the issues surrounding
replacements for it in the issue I got yesterday. I only got about half way
through it but it had some info I didn't know.



"Tater Schuld" wrote in message
...
seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?

not a pilot or homebuilder, so I can't comment on the original post.

I remember some time ago during the 70's gas crunch there was talk of
selling straight ethanol for fuel. issues then were that a lot of plastics
(maybe rubbers too?) couldn't handle it.

what metals cant handle ethanol? not the water absorbed by ethanol, but
ethanol itself?

in the future I'll be looking into ethanol for fuel for small gas engines,
and work my way up to cars and such, so it will be a moot point.
"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny

Tater Schuld wrote:
seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?

Yes. But you don't fill your tank with 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.
Just a few ounces of ethanol every now and then to emulsify any water,
if you think you might have some. At those very low concentrations
ethanol won't be a problem. However 85% is a whole nuther issue.

Regards,

-Doug

wrote in message
oups.com...

Tater Schuld wrote:
seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?

Yes. But you don't fill your tank with 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.
Just a few ounces of ethanol every now and then to emulsify any water,
if you think you might have some. At those very low concentrations
ethanol won't be a problem. However 85% is a whole nuther issue.

ok, so we have people in an uproar about the addition of ethanol, but no
hard facts about what amounts is harmful.

is 10% ok?
20%?

where can I find a breakdown that can show the effects of ethanol in
percentages from 5% to 85%

what do they affect?

Tater Schuld wrote:
seems odd, isn't ethanol/methanol the main ingredient in gas deicer?

Some are mostly methanol.

Some others use isopropynol. Pat Gauss (of PBS's autoweek) advises
using only the isopropynol variety as it does not attack the
elastomeric
components of the fuel system the way methanol and ethanol do.

--

FF

Hopefully, there are not too many knee-jerk reactions to ethanol and
some good solid info comes forth. It MUST be able to be used (probably
with some modifications). Back in the 90s there was a group with Van's
RV series airplanes that flew at Oshkosh with 100% ethanol, if I recall.
Brazil has been using high concentrations of ethanol for many years.
I am very interested in learning what can be done to make a safe
transition to ethanol based fuels...because I think it will be coming
soon enough...

Scott


Denny wrote:
Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny

Some information about the topic can be found he

http://www.baylor.edu/bias/index.php?id=110

JP


"Scott" kirjoitti
...
Hopefully, there are not too many knee-jerk reactions to ethanol and some
good solid info comes forth. It MUST be able to be used (probably with
some modifications). Back in the 90s there was a group with Van's RV
series airplanes that flew at Oshkosh with 100% ethanol, if I recall.
Brazil has been using high concentrations of ethanol for many years. I am
very interested in learning what can be done to make a safe transition to
ethanol based fuels...because I think it will be coming soon enough...

Scott


Denny wrote:
Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny

I think Scott's attitude is more realistic than Denny's. Alcohol based
fuels, be it 100% alcohol or a mix of alcohol and gasoline, are on the
way. Simply from the cost perspective, I don't know about you guys, but
I've had to cut back on flying time because of the outrageous cost of
avgas and would be quite happy if I could get a safe, effective alcohol
based fuel at half (or less) the cost!
As to production, demand will drive production and we'll have as much
as we can use when we demand it. They're doing it in Brazil, so
effectively that Brazil is now self sufficient in fuel supply (and they
don't have much indigenous oil production) and have tapped only a small
portion of their production potential...I'm pretty sure we could do the
same in North America.
GM is already building hybrid alcohol/gasoline engines so many of the
"problems" noted have probably already been solved and the remainder
won't be far behind...so get ready for it, it's on the way and rather
sooner than later I (hope) think...

....Ken

Scott wrote:
Hopefully, there are not too many knee-jerk reactions to ethanol and
some good solid info comes forth. It MUST be able to be used (probably
with some modifications). Back in the 90s there was a group with Van's
RV series airplanes that flew at Oshkosh with 100% ethanol, if I recall.
Brazil has been using high concentrations of ethanol for many years. I
am very interested in learning what can be done to make a safe
transition to ethanol based fuels...because I think it will be coming
soon enough...

Scott


Denny wrote:

Ethanol is acidic and corrosive... It is death to aircraft rubber fuel
tanks, many kinds of rubber seals, corrodes many metals, and is a bad
idea all around... They can't make ethanol fast enough so they will
resort to methanol, which is even more nasty...

But, don't let me stand in your way of knowledge... Do a search on
ethanol + corrosion and find out what I don't know...
cheers ... denny