ASW 20 Handling Issues?

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:38:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

i did fly a 27, and i kinda was unimpressed in the difference. having flown against 27's in the past, i can also say that on the east coast a 20 can hang, unless the 27 pilot is s**t hot. i wouldn't pay 3x for a better role rate, and a few more L/D. if the 20 had automatic hookups like a 27, i'd never upgrade. i will say that from a cockpit comfort perspective, the 20 and 27 just work better with my body. i can sit in my 20 for 6 hours and feel great. if i fly a discus or a V2 for that long, my lower back and the back of my knees start hurting.

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:38:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

i did fly a 27, and i kinda was unimpressed in the difference. having flown against 27's in the past, i can also say that on the east coast a 20 can hang, unless the 27 pilot is s**t hot. i wouldn't pay 3x for a better role rate, and a few more L/D. if the 20 had automatic hookups like a 27, i'd never upgrade. i will say that from a cockpit comfort perspective, the 20 and 27 just work better with my body. i can sit in my 20 for 6 hours and feel great. if i fly a discus or a V2 for that long, my lower back and the back of my knees start hurting. but they are both excellent machines too. the ventussbx was the most beautifully handling glider i've ever flown.

Le mercredi 8 novembre 2017 14:38:12 UTC+1, ND a écritÂ*:
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:38:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

i did fly a 27, and i kinda was unimpressed in the difference. having flown against 27's in the past, i can also say that on the east coast a 20 can hang, unless the 27 pilot is s**t hot.

That may hold with an ASW20 and and ASW27 both empty.
If conditions are good and the 27 loads up to almost 50 kg/m2, a 20 dowesn't stand a chance.

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 9:03:30 AM UTC-5, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mercredi 8 novembre 2017 14:38:12 UTC+1, ND a écritÂ*:
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:38:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

i did fly a 27, and i kinda was unimpressed in the difference. having flown against 27's in the past, i can also say that on the east coast a 20 can hang, unless the 27 pilot is s**t hot.

That may hold with an ASW20 and and ASW27 both empty.
If conditions are good and the 27 loads up to almost 50 kg/m2, a 20 dowesn't stand a chance.

i did specify east coast. maybe i should have been more clear. northeast.. we don't fly with water most of the time.

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 6:27:23 AM UTC-8, ND wrote:
On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 9:03:30 AM UTC-5, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mercredi 8 novembre 2017 14:38:12 UTC+1, ND a écritÂ*:
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 4:38:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 11:55:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

You may have hit the nail when you posted "Some Configurations". Don't put in full landing flaps on an early 20 until you are on final and have the field made. You will be rewarded with the ability to land anywhere. With full flaps it is like flaring a hang glider. Do a weight and balance before you fly if you suspect any undocumented lead in the tail. Using Gerhard's CG recommendation mine stalled and flew like a trainer. I flew a friends 20 and the handling was like balancing on a pin so rigging may be an issue on some of these older ships.
Also, The notion that the 27 is "overrated" is silly. If you get a chance, fly them both and you will go with the 27.

i did fly a 27, and i kinda was unimpressed in the difference. having flown against 27's in the past, i can also say that on the east coast a 20 can hang, unless the 27 pilot is s**t hot.

That may hold with an ASW20 and and ASW27 both empty.
If conditions are good and the 27 loads up to almost 50 kg/m2, a 20 dowesn't stand a chance.

i did specify east coast. maybe i should have been more clear. northeast. we don't fly with water most of the time.

Never flown a 20 or 27 (can't fit in them) but flown numerous very long final glides (50+ miles) against numerous examples of both. This is in the west usually with water. There is a huge difference between them. After 50 miles or so the 27 will be a few hundred feet below my 18m, the 20 will be a few thousand.

Op zondag 5 november 2017 06:55:40 UTC+1 schreef :
The ASW 20 seems to have a reputation for bad behavior in some configurations. Is this reputation deserved or overblown? What has been the experience of those who have owned and flown the glider? Are some variants of the 20 better or worse in terms of handling characteristics?

Tom A

I flew the ASW20 for about 1500 hours, it is the finest 15 meter ship ever built at the time. Mine was fantastic, it was a L model, wold run like a scalded ape and no bad habits that you could not recognize. Bob

On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:55:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
... no bad habits that you could not recognize.

OK, what were the bad habits you could recognize???

On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 6:28:56 PM UTC-5, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:55:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
... no bad habits that you could not recognize.

OK, what were the bad habits you could recognize???

Meant to say there were no bad habits!!! Fantastic ship, would go down in the sailplane hall of fame if it existed. Bob