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Best Overall Motorglider available today?



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 16th 20, 07:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,076
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

That is a curious statement. The Austro Wankel seems to be measurably more reliable than the Rotax as installed in the DG.

I will agree that tows are far more economical - provided you can get one. Of the four Great Basin soaring operations, 4 out of 4 experienced some period of reduced tow availability this year, a trend that is increasing.

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:15:05 AM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
I can't think of anything polite to say about Wankel engines... a
vibration free engineers nightmare?

If economics are at all an issue just buy a proper sailplane and get a
tow: it's a FAR FAR cheaper way to fly.


Ads
  #22  
Old September 16th 20, 08:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,627
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

Dave Walsh wrote on 9/16/2020 9:06 AM:
I can't think of anything polite to say about Wankel engines... a
vibration free engineers nightmare?


How is "vibration free" an "engineers nightmare"? It's certainly a pilots dream!
After 200 engine hours spread over 25 years, I have not had a significant
vibration induced problem! Try achieving that with a two stroke.

Here's some actual comparisons: a while ago, I searched the postings on the Wankel
powered Schleicher glider group for key words like "vibration", and also on the
DG/Solo group. There were few to found for the Wankel engine, and they were a
small minority of the issues discussed. The search of the DG/Solo group found a
LOT "vibration" issues, and they were the big majority problems.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #23  
Old September 16th 20, 09:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,326
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

The Stemme /can/ be a touring motorglider if you want to fly it that
way.* I prefer to fly mine as a self launching glider with a rock solid,
/certificated,/ engine for self retrieve.* It has /never/ failed to
start.* Still, I don't take it anywhere that I can not land on a paved
runway but, with 50:1 glide at a decent cruise speed, there are plenty
of landing spots available.

On 9/15/2020 4:06 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 3:59:35 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
Stemme. Except for acquisition cost...
On 9/15/2020 12:34 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:28:37 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware
Perhaps 2G's 26?

--
Dan, 5J

For a Touring Motorglider, I vote for the Phoenix.


--
Dan, 5J

  #24  
Old September 16th 20, 09:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,326
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

Patti and I sat in a Taurus and, while we liked the idea, it was pretty
lightly built.* Plus it was too simple.* I'd go to sleep from not having
to monitor any "systems".* Not like the spawn of a B-52 and an Abrams
Tank. =-O And I won't have anything beyond a lawn mower or a chain saw
with a two stroke engine.


On 9/15/2020 8:50 PM, AS wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 4:59:35 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Stemme.* Except for acquisition cost...

On 9/15/2020 12:34 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:28:37 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware
Perhaps 2G's 26?

--
Dan, 5J

What about the 'poor man's version' of the Stemme, the Pipistrel Taurus? I am not sure what the deal is reg. the Rotax 503, which according to the Rotax website is no longer in production but they are advertising an E-version. Side-by-sides rock! ;-)

Uli
'AS'


--
Dan, 5J
  #25  
Old September 16th 20, 09:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Walsh[_2_]
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Posts: 51
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

At 19:27 16 September 2020, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dave Walsh wrote on 9/16/2020 9:06 AM:
I can't think of anything polite to say about Wankel engines... a
vibration free engineers nightmare?


How is "vibration free" an "engineers nightmare"? It's certainly a

pilots
dream!
After 200 engine hours spread over 25 years, I have not had a

significant
vibration induced problem! Try achieving that with a two stroke.

Here's some actual comparisons: a while ago, I searched the postings

on the
Wankel
powered Schleicher glider group for key words like "vibration", and

also on
the
DG/Solo group. There were few to found for the Wankel engine, and

they were
a
small minority of the issues discussed. The search of the DG/Solo

group
found a
LOT "vibration" issues, and they were the big majority problems.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to

email
me)


My poor use of English, perhaps I should have said the Wankel is an
engineering nightmare (without vibration problems)? Clearly some
pilots have reliable Wankel engines; others are not so fortunate. Luckily
we're in a democracy so we can choose which (unreliable) engine to
buy. Current DG models have Solo not Rotax engines. I don't like any of
them. There are some nice Japanese two strokes out there, just not in
any sailplane. Despite the reported lack of vibration the bolts holding
some Wankel engines together seem to have a habit of falling out?
Assuming all motor-gliders are unreliable seems a safe bet.



  #26  
Old September 16th 20, 09:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,326
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

We owned one for a couple of years.* It's very light and was a handful
at Moriarty during our windier months.* It will thermal and gain
altitude, but not with a sailplane.* It's a great cruiser, capable of
exceeding redline in level flight, so be careful with the throttle.* The
Rotax ULS delivered 100 hp with no more than around 7 gallons/hour at
max power, IIRC, and it cruise it burned under 4 gph.* Oh, and it has a
ballistic parachute.

On 9/16/2020 5:56 AM, wrote:
Thoughts on the Pipistrel Sinus?


--
Dan, 5J
  #27  
Old September 16th 20, 10:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,627
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

Dave Walsh wrote on 9/16/2020 1:11 PM:
Despite the reported lack of vibration the bolts holding
some Wankel engines together seem to have a habit of falling out?
Assuming all motor-gliders are unreliable seems a safe bet.


The 26E was not affected, so I am not an expert on it; however, my understanding
is it's a bolt problem, not vibration related. Seriously, it has so little
vibration, I can't imagine that it could break a bolt. Vibration is simply not an
issue in our Wankel powered gliders.

It is a bad bet to assume all motor-gliders are unreliable, when so many are quite
good. I have had fewer lost soaring days because I couldn't self-launch than when
I had to use tows, and I'm very glad to be a FORMER owner of towplane!

It is not a good bet to assume the engine will start when it is your only chance
of avoiding a crash. It's not just the engine that may malfunction, but the pilot
might make a mistake.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #28  
Old September 16th 20, 10:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Posts: 345
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

The question comes down to what do you want, power-plane flying with some soaring ability or self-launch, self retrieve cross country sailplane? And how much money do you have?
For the latter mission, the ASH31 is right now a great glider. (Of course, my toy.) Strong climb performance -- I self-launch at Truckee, often 8000+ density altitude, with full water ballast, and no trouble. It has great cross country performance, keeping up well with 18m contest gliders. Its one limitation is not quite enough water ballast (legally), 10.8 lbs/sq foot. The 26 is a good substitute if you don't have lots of money. No 21 meter wings, top about 9.2 lbs, for much less money you lose a few MPH on your friend in a 31. The engine is very reliable.
I would not choose it though if I routinely wanted to fly 100s of miles under power and occasionally soar a bit.
John Cochrane BB
  #29  
Old September 16th 20, 10:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 4
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 4:16:46 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
We owned one for a couple of years. It's very light and was a handful
at Moriarty during our windier months. It will thermal and gain
altitude, but not with a sailplane. It's a great cruiser, capable of
exceeding redline in level flight, so be careful with the throttle. The
Rotax ULS delivered 100 hp with no more than around 7 gallons/hour at
max power, IIRC, and it cruise it burned under 4 gph. Oh, and it has a
ballistic parachute.
On 9/16/2020 5:56 AM, charles wrote:
Thoughts on the Pipistrel Sinus?

--
Dan, 5J


I was thinking to use it as a long distance low cost/hr cruiser. Sort of like sailboat cruising. Not in a hurry to get where I'm going.

What do you think about its thermaling ability? Do you agree that visibility in, say, 45 degree banked turns is terrible? or is it like, say a Cessna 152 (not great but not terrible)? I wouldn't be soaring it with other gliders in gaggles or such. Just cruise-thermaling to save fuel.

Was also thinking to use it to teach off-field landing approaches at various clubs around the US.

Glide ratio appears to vary depending on config. 30:1 is advertised but tech data shows 27:1 for one model and 23:1 for the heavier model:

https://www.pipistrel-usa.com/sinus/

Ben
  #30  
Old September 17th 20, 12:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
danlj
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Posts: 121
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On 9/16/2020 5:56 AM, charles wrote:
Thoughts on the Pipistrel Sinus?


Glide ratio appears to vary depending on config. 30:1 is advertised but tech data shows 27:1 for one model and 23:1 for the heavier model:

https://www.pipistrel-usa.com/sinus/

Ben

My flights in a Pipistrel Sinus showed that in a 45-degree bank, the sink rate is quite dramatic, and it takes strong thermals to soar effectively. I enjoyed giving rides to power pilots in which we'd fly around for awhile in airplane ,mode; then I'd stop the engine and feather the prop, and let the airplane pilot glide to a landing (they always handed it back to me at pattern altitude).
Lots of fun, but not a "sailplane" in the XC sense. I can't imagine flying it in weak conditions.
Dan J
 




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