Spoilers, no spoilers?

James Robinson wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

James Robinson wrote:

Amine wrote:

An Air Canada DC-8 crashed in 1970 because spoilers were deployed
before landing, which "by the book" is a definite no-no (cf. Air
Canada 621 disaster). How come the first officer (with over 5500
hrs with that type of aircraft) made such a decision to deploy
spoilers while still in the air?

It was accidental.

The spoiler handle could be used to do two things: Lift to arm the
spoilers for automatic deployment when the aircraft landed, or pull
out and down to manually deploy the spoilers. *The FO likely just
wanted to arm them, but inadvertently deployed them instead. *

The handle has since been mechanically interlocked to prevent that
action. (1975 FAA AD)

The irony of that accident was that the Captain had complained to
the company management about the Air Canada procedure at the time.
It required arming the spoilers as part of the prelanding checklist,
at about the same time as the landing gear was lowered. *He felt
that because of the handle design, it was too easy to inadvertently
deploy them at that critical time in flight. *If he was flying, he
would normally ask the FO to wait to deploy them manually only after
the aircraft landed, which was contrary to the airline's procedures.

This particular first officer liked to arm the spoilers in the
flare, and the captain agreed to that arrangement. *It appears that
the FO both took action sooner than he should have in the flare, and
instead of just arming them, he also inadvertently deployed them
when the aircraft was still 60 feet in the air.

I think it was higher, but no matter, they tore the airplane in two.
I've read the tapes from this one. Chilling. The co-pilot just kept
saying "sorry Bob, sorry Bob, over and over as the airplane broke
up..

"Sorry Pete", actually. (Pete Hamilton) There was no question he was
remorseful.


OK. Been a while. A year or two after the event, in fact.

A number of on-line sources say 60 feet, and that the spoilers were
deployed just as the power was being reduced for the flare. My
recollection at the time, like yours, was that it was higher, but I
guess the 60 foot number comes from the official accident report.

Well, my memory is probably playing tricks is all. hard to imagine 60
feet being that bad, but OTOH all spoilers up... Not nice.


Bertie

Rich Ahrens wrote in news:47abb90d$0$93284$804603d3
@auth.newsreader.iphouse.com:

James Robinson wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
I've read the tapes from this one. Chilling. The co-pilot just kept
saying "sorry Bob, sorry Bob, over and over as the airplane broke
up..

"Sorry Pete", actually. (Pete Hamilton) There was no question he was
remorseful.

Yep:

http://aviation-safety.net/investiga.../cvr_ac621.php


And it's just as chilling now as it was then. I've read a good few of those
over the years and nothing has ever got to me like that one.

Bertie

Bob Moore wrote in
46.128:

Amine wrote
As a side question, what is the functional difference between
spoilers and airbrakes?

Spoilers and Speedbrakes are the same panels on top of the wings
of Transport Category Aircraft. They deploy symmmetrically when
activated by the Speedbrake handle and asymmetrically when
activated by the aileron control (yoke).

Well, not all of them Some just use outer panels for roll, a couple more
for speedbrakes mand then one or two more for ground only.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Rich Ahrens wrote in news:47abb90d$0$93284$804603d3
@auth.newsreader.iphouse.com:

James Robinson wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
I've read the tapes from this one. Chilling. The co-pilot just kept
saying "sorry Bob, sorry Bob, over and over as the airplane broke
up..
"Sorry Pete", actually. (Pete Hamilton) There was no question he was
remorseful.
Yep:

http://aviation-safety.net/investiga.../cvr_ac621.php

And it's just as chilling now as it was then. I've read a good few of those
over the years and nothing has ever got to me like that one.

Ever see the theatrical show "Charlie Victor Romeo"? They reenact the
final minutes of a half dozen (or so) flights in the cockpit, using the
CVR transcripts as scripts. You want to talk chilling... This particular
accident wasn't in the performance I saw in NYC a few years ago, though.

The show has been staged for industry and military flight safety
audiences as well. The Air Force recorded it as training video. Here's
one scene from that:

http://media.pbs.org/ramgen/wnet/egg...3-Granby-hi.rm

Rich Ahrens wrote in
. net:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Rich Ahrens wrote in news:47abb90d$0$93284$804603d3
@auth.newsreader.iphouse.com:

James Robinson wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
I've read the tapes from this one. Chilling. The co-pilot just
kept saying "sorry Bob, sorry Bob, over and over as the airplane
broke up..
"Sorry Pete", actually. (Pete Hamilton) There was no question he
was remorseful.
Yep:

http://aviation-safety.net/investiga...s/cvr_ac621.ph
p

And it's just as chilling now as it was then. I've read a good few of
those over the years and nothing has ever got to me like that one.

Ever see the theatrical show "Charlie Victor Romeo"? They reenact the
final minutes of a half dozen (or so) flights in the cockpit, using
the CVR transcripts as scripts. You want to talk chilling... This
particular accident wasn't in the performance I saw in NYC a few years
ago, though.

I've heard of it. (probably through ADA) but hadn't seen any of it. I'd
probably only see the technical holes in it.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Rich Ahrens wrote in
. net:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Rich Ahrens wrote in news:47abb90d$0$93284$804603d3
@auth.newsreader.iphouse.com:

James Robinson wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
I've read the tapes from this one. Chilling. The co-pilot just
kept saying "sorry Bob, sorry Bob, over and over as the airplane
broke up..
"Sorry Pete", actually. (Pete Hamilton) There was no question he
was remorseful.
Yep:

http://aviation-safety.net/investiga...s/cvr_ac621.ph
p

And it's just as chilling now as it was then. I've read a good few of
those over the years and nothing has ever got to me like that one.
Ever see the theatrical show "Charlie Victor Romeo"? They reenact the
final minutes of a half dozen (or so) flights in the cockpit, using
the CVR transcripts as scripts. You want to talk chilling... This
particular accident wasn't in the performance I saw in NYC a few years
ago, though.

I've heard of it. (probably through ADA) but hadn't seen any of it. I'd
probably only see the technical holes in it.

Well, considering the dialogue is straight from the CVR transcripts,
about the only errors available in that realm would be pronunciation
ones. (There's at least one obvious one in the video I linked to). The
cockpit used for all the scenes is a schematic one and not intended to
be an accurate simulation of each type, so you could get them on the
hand movements, of course.

Rich Ahrens wrote in news:47ae5665$0$93290
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Well, considering the dialogue is straight from the CVR transcripts,
about the only errors available in that realm would be pronunciation
ones. (There's at least one obvious one in the video I linked to). The
cockpit used for all the scenes is a schematic one and not intended to
be an accurate simulation of each type, so you could get them on the
hand movements, of course.




Dunno, it's more the tone, I think. That one I saw was actualy OK, though.

Bertie

F. Baum wrote:
/snip/ As an
interesting side note, on the Boeings, if you have the boards about
half way extended and then try a turn, you get a dramatic increase in
the roll rate.


Well, that certainly is one of the many characteristics that made the
727 so fun to fly, but it is definately not present on the 737-200. In
fact, the 37's spoilers in general are an anemic stepchild compared to
the massive boards on the 27. I don't have experience on any of the
other Boeings.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

Scott Skylane wrote in
:

F. Baum wrote:
/snip/ As an
interesting side note, on the Boeings, if you have the boards about
half way extended and then try a turn, you get a dramatic increase in
the roll rate.


Well, that certainly is one of the many characteristics that made the
727 so fun to fly, but it is definately not present on the 737-200. In
fact, the 37's spoilers in general are an anemic stepchild compared to
the massive boards on the 27. I don't have experience on any of the
other Boeings.

Nothing goes down like the 727! First time I flew it I ended up level at
2,000' 30 miles form the airport. and that was without the spoilers!
With them it was like a brick!


Bertie

On Feb 7, 9:06*pm, Rich Ahrens wrote:
James Robinson wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
I've read the tapes from this one. Chilling. The co-pilot just kept
saying "sorry Bob, sorry Bob, over and over as the airplane *broke
up..

"Sorry Pete", actually. (Pete Hamilton) *There was no question he was
remorseful.

Yep:

http://aviation-safety.net/investiga.../cvr_ac621.php

Thanks for the link Ruch. Just read the transcript. Wow!
Sobering...

Wil