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IFR logging question - is this legal?
Peter wrote: Hi All, This is for an N-reg aircraft. Aircraft: a standard piston single. P1 seat: a pilot legal to be PIC under VFR. P2 seat: a pilot legal to be PIC under IFR (but no CFI/CFII rating). No money changes hands. Irrelevant to logging time Let's say one does an IFR flight. Obviously the one in the P2 seat has to be PIC, to keep it legal. Can the P1 pilot log anything at all and, if so, what can he log? I presume P1 is sole manipulator of the controls Now, is the situation any different if the aircraft is owned by the P2 person and rented to the P1 person? I know about the 100-hr check stuff; 91.409: "...no person may operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire, and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection... Irrelevant to logging time and this suggests that a 100hr check is NOT required (nobody being carried for hire, and nobody doing instructing). correct Thank you for any comments. Can the P1 also log it? I'd hope so! Only if P1 is sole manipulator of the controls, rated for the category and class of airplane, and using a view limiting device (91.109) that would require a second crew member. That second crew member of course would need to act as PIC. Without a view limiting device, two pilots are not necessary. P1 would be acting as an organic autopilot. The regs make no distinction between VMC versus IMC or IFR versus VFR for the purposes of logging time. |
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IFR logging question - is this legal?
Brad wrote: The regs make no distinction between VMC versus IMC or IFR versus VFR for the purposes of logging time. The safety pilot cannot log time in IMC. -Robert, CFII |
#3
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IFR logging question - is this legal?
In article .com,
Robert M. Gary wrote: Brad wrote: The regs make no distinction between VMC versus IMC or IFR versus VFR for the purposes of logging time. The safety pilot cannot log time in IMC. Unless the pilot who is manipulating the controls is not instrument rated, in which case the "safety pilot" must be PIC (and had better be instrument rated and on an active IFR flight plan). -- Dane |
#4
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IFR logging question - is this legal?
Dane Spearing wrote:
In article .com, Robert M. Gary wrote: Brad wrote: The regs make no distinction between VMC versus IMC or IFR versus VFR for the purposes of logging time. The safety pilot cannot log time in IMC. Unless the pilot who is manipulating the controls is not instrument rated, in which case the "safety pilot" must be PIC (and had better be instrument rated and on an active IFR flight plan). Safety pilots do not exist in IMC. Safety pilots are needed only for simulated IFR. Simulated IFR (along with some part 135/121 os) are the rules under which "more than one pilot is required." Flying IFR in actual only requires one pilot. |
#5
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IFR logging question - is this legal?
Dane Spearing wrote: Unless the pilot who is manipulating the controls is not instrument rated, in which case the "safety pilot" must be PIC (and had better be instrument rated and on an active IFR flight plan). -- Dane No, once the flight is in IMC there is no need for a safety pilot and therefor the flight does not need 2 pilots. -Robert, CFII |
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IFR logging question - is this legal?
Robert M. Gary wrote:
Brad wrote: The regs make no distinction between VMC versus IMC or IFR versus VFR for the purposes of logging time. The safety pilot cannot log time in IMC. -Robert, CFII IF the safety pilot is the one who has the instrument rating, he most certainly can.. because he IS the PIC. In the scenario listed above, the pilot flying (P1) is described as legal for VFR flight.. and P2 is listed for legal for IFR flight.. so for this IFR flight, only P2 can BE the pilot in command. Both can log, however. P1 logs PIC by virtue of being sole manipulator. P2 logs PIC by virtue of BEING the PIC on the IFR flight plan, because only P2 can BE the PIC under an IFR clearance under the conditions specified by the original poster. Dave |
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IFR logging question - is this legal?
Dave S wrote: Robert M. Gary wrote: IF the safety pilot is the one who has the instrument rating, he most certainly can.. because he IS the PIC. There is no such provision under 61.51(e). You do not get to log PIC just because you are Pilot In Command. -Robert, CFII |
#8
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IFR logging question - is this legal?
Robert M. Gary wrote:
Dave S wrote: Robert M. Gary wrote: IF the safety pilot is the one who has the instrument rating, he most certainly can.. because he IS the PIC. There is no such provision under 61.51(e). You do not get to log PIC just because you are Pilot In Command. -Robert, CFII But he IS a required crewmember. He's required to be there to operate under the IFR clearance. Dave |
#9
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IFR logging question - is this legal?
Dave S wrote: But he IS a required crewmember. He's required to be there to operate under the IFR clearance. Yes, but the flying pilot is not required to be there. There is nothing in the FARs that says the flying pilot must be there. However, the FARs do require a second crew member when the flying pilot is under the hood in VMC. -Robert, CFII |
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IFR logging question - is this legal?
Dave S wrote: But he IS a required crewmember. He's required to be there to operate under the IFR clearance. The operation you decribed does not require more than one pilot by regulation. Flying under the hood in VMC requires more than one pilot by regulation. Once you don't need the hood, you don't need more than one pilot. 61.51(e)(1) (iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an^M aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type^M certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is^M conducted.^M -Robert, CFII |
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