Glider - Towplane Signals

The irony with our club is: no radio, no fly. But don't use it! We
don't want to **** off the landlord. In an emergency yes, but no speed
up, slow down, turns, or 'off tow' messages. Go figure. Of course the
landlord uses our radio freq. to order lunch and schedule refuelling.

If you are in an emergency (except for the no release problem where you
have plenty of time) you had better have a radio with push to talk in
an easy location. Because you just aren't going to have the time, or
the hands perhaps, to grab the hand-held and transmit. In immediate
emergency situations the hand-held is useless except to call back for
someone to bring the truck and haul you out, if anyone is listening.

Let me try again - for some reason the Google version got my post out
of order.

Here's the main thrust of my post - has any glider pilot ever
successfully used the wing rock signal to speed up a towplane that was
flying dangerously slowly?

Is this a signal that has migrated from winch launching and is it
useful?

Mike

I wonder if the wing rock signal might be best not
used for the same reason it is never used for winch
launching. If you are slow do you really want to be
applying aileron to rock the wings?



At 14:30 23 March 2005, Mike The Strike wrote:
Let me try again - for some reason the Google version
got my post out
of order.

Here's the main thrust of my post - has any glider
pilot ever
successfully used the wing rock signal to speed up
a towplane that was
flying dangerously slowly?

Is this a signal that has migrated from winch launching
and is it
useful?

Mike

I assume you mean that the tuggie looses sight of the
glider. If the glider looses sight of the tug there
is only one action required, pull sharply on yellow
knob, no communication required just release.


At 16:00 23 March 2005, Bruce wrote:
COLIN LAMB wrote:
What I see is a clear picture that working radios
are essential for safety.
They are inexpensive and the communications between
pilots when one goes
out of view is reassuring.

Colin N12HS


Our club has a simple rule - no radio, no fly, no problems...

At 14:30 23 March 2005, Mike The Strike wrote:
Let me try again - for some reason the Google version
got my post out
of order.

Here's the main thrust of my post - has any glider
pilot ever
successfully used the wing rock signal to speed up
a towplane that was
flying dangerously slowly?

deletion



Seems to me the question could be phrased better.
(If it is already dangerously slow, rocking the wings
could be disastrous.)

A better question might be, 'Are the signals useful
for speeding up or slowing down when the speed is
not really dangerous but is not the best or most comfortable?'.

Or, are these emergency signals or convenience signals?
The steering signal is not an emergency one. Certainly
the emergency release and the close spoilers signals
are emergencies; do we want only emergency signals?

I've used the tail waggle to slow a tuggie down when
my glider was shaking due to excessive tow speed.
He was leveling off under a cloud layer and he had
sped up considerably. I was not wanting to release,
as I was not within safe glide. So yes, in a sense,
this was an emergency procedure signal from glider
to towplane that worked.

For those who are talking about takeoff, sure, I don't
see there is a lot of time to signal 'too slow' or
desire to do so for aerodynamic reasons.

As far as other glider to towplane emerg signals, maybe
glider can't release is important (although one can
usually break the rope, unless wrapped around an ailoron,
etc.).

As far as mandatory radios, I'm why this would make
a critical difference, except to have someone keying
a radio when they should really be focused on the release
knob. Maybe keying the mike and saying 'speed up'
works 100 times. Then the 101st time the tuggie is
oblivious, or can do nothing about it (ran out of gas)
and the glider pilot has wasted 2-5 seconds instead
of releasing, stalls, and dmages the glider or hurts
himself.

I'm willing to bet that if you ask pilots who damaged
a ballasted glider on takeoff, many keyed the mike
right before the stall...
and were in disbelief that the tuggie didn't do what
he was told.

I've aborted launches twice due to tuggie issues.
No radio either time. And no raised fingers from me.
I suppose both were emergency PTTs. But if there
is anything 'wierd' going on, release immediately and
I'm on my own...

I'd definitely prefer a chat with the tuggie before
launch and then no radio, to no chat and then a conversation
on the radio DURING a launch emergency.

At 14:30 23 March 2005, Mike The Strike wrote:
Let me try again - for some reason the Google version
got my post out
of order.

Here's the main thrust of my post - has any glider
pilot ever
successfully used the wing rock signal to speed up
a towplane that was
flying dangerously slowly?

Is this a signal that has migrated from winch launching
and is it
useful?

Mike


Mark J. Boyd

At 07:30 24 March 2005, Go wrote:
The irony with our club is: no radio, no fly. But don't
use it! We
don't want to **** off the landlord. In an emergency
yes, but no speed
up, slow down, turns, or 'off tow' messages. Go figure.
Of course the
landlord uses our radio freq. to order lunch and schedule
refuelling.

If you are in an emergency (except for the no release
problem where you
have plenty of time) you had better have a radio with
push to talk in
an easy location. Because you just aren't going to
have the time, or
the hands perhaps, to grab the hand-held and transmit.
In immediate
emergency situations the hand-held is useless except
to call back for
someone to bring the truck and haul you out, if anyone
is listening.

I am a little confused here. I can see the sense in
having the radio to pass messages between tug and glider
like asking for an extra 5 kts. I can see the need
for having a transmit button easily accessible rather
than having to pick up a hand held radio but surely
the only action needed in an emergency is to release
from the tow. If either aircraft has an emergency or
problem the first thing must always be to release the
tow before it gets a lot worse.

Spoilers disconnected and popped out at Truckee (where
straight ahead landing at 100 ft = bad) would mean
to stay on tow for a while, not immediate release.

Towrope wrapped around a wing, one can't release, so
the tuggie might need to, another example where someone
can't immediately release.

Two very different things, two different actions.
But I'm not aware of anyone having a rope wrap around
a wing
and unable to release, where this happened very low
during launch. Up high in wave, yes, but at 100 ft?
Not that I'm aware of (thankfully).

I'm sure there are other circumstances I haven't considered,
where one doesn't want to release immediately. An
unconnected elevator where the nose hook is helping
stabilize the glider and I want to get to bailout height
perhaps? Boy, I'd hate to be in this situation, though.
Maybe save your own life, but if miffed up (more likely)
maybe killing the tuggie AND yourself.

Anyway, there are times when releasing automatically
maybe isn't the best choice.

But in any emergency, aviate, navigate, then communicate,
in that priority. I can't help but think the disproportionate

number of midairs at 'D' airports are pilots thinking
they
are accomplishing collision avoidance by looking at
the radio and talking into the microphone.

Mark
'PTT means premature termination of tow, not push-to-talk'


At 09:30 24 March 2005, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 07:30 24 March 2005, Go wrote:
The irony with our club is: no radio, no fly. But don't
use it! We
don't want to **** off the landlord. In an emergency
yes, but no speed
up, slow down, turns, or 'off tow' messages. Go figure.
Of course the
landlord uses our radio freq. to order lunch and schedule
refuelling.

If you are in an emergency (except for the no release
problem where you
have plenty of time) you had better have a radio with
push to talk in
an easy location. Because you just aren't going to
have the time, or
the hands perhaps, to grab the hand-held and transmit.
In immediate
emergency situations the hand-held is useless except
to call back for
someone to bring the truck and haul you out, if anyone
is listening.

I am a little confused here. I can see the sense in
having the radio to pass messages between tug and glider
like asking for an extra 5 kts. I can see the need
for having a transmit button easily accessible rather
than having to pick up a hand held radio but surely
the only action needed in an emergency is to release
from the tow. If either aircraft has an emergency or
problem the first thing must always be to release the
tow before it gets a lot worse.





Mark J. Boyd

I can see some ways in which a radio can help for a
slowly developing emergency. A fogging windscreen
or maybe
a glider caught above clouds. But this seems mostly
an already off tow circumstance.

I read recently about a glider pilot who had both of
these
happen on his 100th flight, and used his cell phone
to
get weather info and find a proper landout.

He circled for a while right under the cue sorting
it out.

So as with anything, I think radios can be an aid,
even
in an emergency, but I don't think they are very
useful for emergencies requiring immediate action on
tow.

Once off tow, and in a gaggle, maybe it is really nice
to radio
somebody you are gonna circle under them. I'd sure
like to know (and be asked for my agreement) before
someone joins in formation flight in a thermal with
me above them.

At 09:30 24 March 2005, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 07:30 24 March 2005, Go wrote:
The irony with our club is: no radio, no fly. But don't
use it! We
don't want to **** off the landlord. In an emergency
yes, but no speed
up, slow down, turns, or 'off tow' messages. Go figure.
Of course the
landlord uses our radio freq. to order lunch and schedule
refuelling.

If you are in an emergency (except for the no release
problem where you
have plenty of time) you had better have a radio with
push to talk in
an easy location. Because you just aren't going to
have the time, or
the hands perhaps, to grab the hand-held and transmit.
In immediate
emergency situations the hand-held is useless except
to call back for
someone to bring the truck and haul you out, if anyone
is listening.

I am a little confused here. I can see the sense in
having the radio to pass messages between tug and glider
like asking for an extra 5 kts. I can see the need
for having a transmit button easily accessible rather
than having to pick up a hand held radio but surely
the only action needed in an emergency is to release
from the tow. If either aircraft has an emergency or
problem the first thing must always be to release the
tow before it gets a lot worse.





Mark J. Boyd