engine pre-oiler

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote

Rather than a pre-oiler, what about grabbing the smog pump off that '78
Chevy you have up on blocks and putting it on your engine with the pump
outlet plumbed into the crankcase some distance away from the existing
breather? (Inlet goes to the clean air side of the air cleaner Note: IIRC
some air pumps have an inlet you can attach a hose to, some don't.)

Keeping the crankcase clean and dry would likely do more good than
pre-oiling...
That is the first time I have heard of an idea like that. Where did you
come up with that?

Are there studies showing this to be of a measurable benefit?

I would think that keeping the interior clean and dry while running would
not do as much to reduce wear when the engine is started, as getting oil
onto the bearings and cam, before the engine is started.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote

Rather than a pre-oiler, what about grabbing the smog pump off that '78
Chevy you have up on blocks and putting it on your engine with the pump
outlet plumbed into the crankcase some distance away from the existing
breather? (Inlet goes to the clean air side of the air cleaner Note: IIRC
some air pumps have an inlet you can attach a hose to, some don't.)

Keeping the crankcase clean and dry would likely do more good than
pre-oiling...
That is the first time I have heard of an idea like that.

Of course it's the first time. I just thought of it today.

Where did you come up with that?

Thinking about how to do PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) on an aircraft
engine.

Are there studies showing this to be of a measurable benefit?

I suspect that you could find a bunch of SAE papers from the '60s that get
into the impact of PCV and engine durability.

Example (quoting the abstract):
Some Effects of Experimental Vehicle Emission Control Systems on Engine
Deposits and Wear
SAE 710583
"Doubling the PCV valve idle air-flow rate greatly reduced engine rusting in
short-trip service, and reduced engine deposits and oil oxidation in mixed
city-suburban-expressway service"

I have had conversations with engineers that were around back then and they
were very sure that PCV systems made a big improvement in engine durability.
But I don't have any data handy. (I do control systems - not engine design
or lubrication)


I would think that keeping the interior clean and dry while running would
not do as much to reduce wear when the engine is started, as getting oil
onto the bearings and cam, before the engine is started.

Engines that run every day typically make it to TBO - engines that run 10
times a year don't. It's not wear from starting that kills engines before
their time, it's corrosion from all the krap in the oil.

My '97 Villager gets started from 2 to 8 times a day. To make a guess, it's
probably been started 15,000 times and the only sign of old age that it is
showing is a little lifter ticking following a cold start (probably because
I tend to not get around to changing the oil very often).

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 18:34:56 -0500, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea
Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote:

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote

Rather than a pre-oiler, what about grabbing the smog pump off that '78
Chevy you have up on blocks and putting it on your engine with the pump
outlet plumbed into the crankcase some distance away from the existing
breather? (Inlet goes to the clean air side of the air cleaner Note: IIRC
some air pumps have an inlet you can attach a hose to, some don't.)

Keeping the crankcase clean and dry would likely do more good than
pre-oiling...
That is the first time I have heard of an idea like that.

Of course it's the first time. I just thought of it today.

Where did you come up with that?

Thinking about how to do PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) on an aircraft
engine.

Are there studies showing this to be of a measurable benefit?

I suspect that you could find a bunch of SAE papers from the '60s that get
into the impact of PCV and engine durability.

Example (quoting the abstract):
Some Effects of Experimental Vehicle Emission Control Systems on Engine
Deposits and Wear
SAE 710583
"Doubling the PCV valve idle air-flow rate greatly reduced engine rusting in
short-trip service, and reduced engine deposits and oil oxidation in mixed
city-suburban-expressway service"


With the amount of blow by and the oil use of many engines we might
even be able to simulate smoke generators, but it might keep the
"greasy side" a lot cleaner. OTOH I'd want to put an oil seperator in
line to take the oil out *before* it went back into the intake.

Roger (K8RI)
I have had conversations with engineers that were around back then and they
were very sure that PCV systems made a big improvement in engine durability.
But I don't have any data handy. (I do control systems - not engine design
or lubrication)


I would think that keeping the interior clean and dry while running would
not do as much to reduce wear when the engine is started, as getting oil
onto the bearings and cam, before the engine is started.

Engines that run every day typically make it to TBO - engines that run 10
times a year don't. It's not wear from starting that kills engines before
their time, it's corrosion from all the krap in the oil.

My '97 Villager gets started from 2 to 8 times a day. To make a guess, it's
probably been started 15,000 times and the only sign of old age that it is
showing is a little lifter ticking following a cold start (probably because
I tend to not get around to changing the oil very often).

Roger (K8RI) wrote:
On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 18:34:56 -0500, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea
Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote:

"Morgans" wrote in message
...
"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote

Rather than a pre-oiler, what about grabbing the smog pump off that '78
Chevy you have up on blocks and putting it on your engine with the pump
outlet plumbed into the crankcase some distance away from the existing
breather? (Inlet goes to the clean air side of the air cleaner Note: IIRC
some air pumps have an inlet you can attach a hose to, some don't.)

Keeping the crankcase clean and dry would likely do more good than
pre-oiling...
That is the first time I have heard of an idea like that.
Of course it's the first time. I just thought of it today.

Where did you come up with that?
Thinking about how to do PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) on an aircraft
engine.

Are there studies showing this to be of a measurable benefit?
I suspect that you could find a bunch of SAE papers from the '60s that get
into the impact of PCV and engine durability.

Example (quoting the abstract):
Some Effects of Experimental Vehicle Emission Control Systems on Engine
Deposits and Wear
SAE 710583
"Doubling the PCV valve idle air-flow rate greatly reduced engine rusting in
short-trip service, and reduced engine deposits and oil oxidation in mixed
city-suburban-expressway service"


With the amount of blow by and the oil use of many engines we might
even be able to simulate smoke generators, but it might keep the
"greasy side" a lot cleaner. OTOH I'd want to put an oil seperator in
line to take the oil out *before* it went back into the intake.

Roger (K8RI)
I have had conversations with engineers that were around back then and they
were very sure that PCV systems made a big improvement in engine durability.
But I don't have any data handy. (I do control systems - not engine design
or lubrication)

I would think that keeping the interior clean and dry while running would
not do as much to reduce wear when the engine is started, as getting oil
onto the bearings and cam, before the engine is started.
Engines that run every day typically make it to TBO - engines that run 10
times a year don't. It's not wear from starting that kills engines before
their time, it's corrosion from all the krap in the oil.

My '97 Villager gets started from 2 to 8 times a day. To make a guess, it's
probably been started 15,000 times and the only sign of old age that it is
showing is a little lifter ticking following a cold start (probably because
I tend to not get around to changing the oil very often).

The crankcase cleaner sounds like a good "after-flight" PM--clear out
the acid enriched moisture vapor before it condenses--of course the
inlet to the case should be dried by sucking thru a silica-gel
canister.Jerry

On Dec 25, 7:36 pm, Jerry Wass wrote:
stol wrote:
On Dec 24, 1:25 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:
stol wrote:
On Dec 23, 1:13 pm, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote:
I'm thinking about using an electric diesel fuel pump to pressurize my 0320
with engine oil to pre-lube before starting. Have any of you tried that?
The accumulator method is heavier than I want to use.
The Accusump accumulator set up is very simple and can't weigh that
much. Used them is alot of racecars and they are bulletproof.
Ben
www.haaspowerair.com
Oh no - the dreaded, "it can't weigh that much" syndrome!

Yup.... afraid so.. :)

Like I said--one each male & female quick disconnect fitting doesn't
weigh as much as anything else that's been talked about so far---Then
you can use any kind of pump that satisfies your expectation, even a
quart reservoir with an electric heater in it--if need be. 'cause all
this stuff stays in the hangar anyhow. When you're through, plug the
disconnected hoses together & everything is all sealed up ,ready for the
next time. Jerry

I built my own manual preoiler for my A-65. Those older
Continentals have a habit of letting the oil pump drain dry past the
oil pump gear cover, even if every effort is made to get the thing
sealed up good and tight, and if that pump is dry it won't suck. No
prime, see, to close up the small gaps that leak air. So you get the
thing started and it knocks and clunks for a few seconds until you
understand that it ain't going to pump. Then you have to disconnect
the oil temperature bulb and pump oil into the screen where it'll run
down into the pump gears and prime them. Sooner ot later the front
bearings are shot from running dry too often.
Got tired of that. As a former machinist, I had no trouble
turning and milling a manual pump that draws oil from a fitting on the
tank filler neck (bent tube inside the neck that dips downward into
the oil) and pumps it via a couple of check valves and a needle
shutoff valve to the oil pressure nose fitting on the engine. It fills
the system backwards and the oil fills the pump, too. Pressure
instantly on start.
Don't ask me to build you one. No time, no wish for liability.
Waitaminnit: maybe, um, $2500?

Dan

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:

what about grabbing the smog pump off that '78 Chevy you have up on
blocks and putting it on your engine with the pump outlet plumbed into
the crankcase

How about something simpler, like the venturi that provides vacuum on
older planes? Would that provide enough volume for effective PCV?

-Dan

I've got to admit that idea has never been put forth, but I'm playing with a
helicopter and increasing weight is looked at very closely. My accumulator
that I built weighs 2.9# but the electric fuel pumps that I have been
reviewing weigh less than 2#. I think that the smog pump is much heavier.
BTW I fly in the desert and corrosion is pretty much a non-issue. I had a
raw 4130 helicopter frame setting outside for about 10yrs and you could wipe
off the rust with a paper towel.
I would really like to have a system mounted on the helicopter that would
pre-oil just before start up. I some time have periods on the airshow
circuit where the engine does not get started for several weeks and I would
like to pre-oil prior to starting and be able to do that from the cockpit or
possibly from a manual pump providing that I can keep the weight down.
"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote in message
...
"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
...
I'm thinking about using an electric diesel fuel pump to pressurize my
0320 with engine oil to pre-lube before starting. Have any of you tried
that? The accumulator method is heavier than I want to use.

I'm thinking (never a good thing, eh?) that your objective is to prolong
the life of the engine?

Rather than a pre-oiler, what about grabbing the smog pump off that '78
Chevy you have up on blocks and putting it on your engine with the pump
outlet plumbed into the crankcase some distance away from the existing
breather? (Inlet goes to the clean air side of the air cleaner Note: IIRC
some air pumps have an inlet you can attach a hose to, some don't.)

Keeping the crankcase clean and dry would likely do more good than
pre-oiling...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
.. .
I've got to admit that idea has never been put forth, but I'm playing with
a helicopter and increasing weight is looked at very closely. My
accumulator that I built weighs 2.9# but the electric fuel pumps that I
have been reviewing weigh less than 2#. I think that the smog pump is
much heavier.
BTW I fly in the desert and corrosion is pretty much a non-issue. I had a
raw 4130 helicopter frame setting outside for about 10yrs and you could
wipe off the rust with a paper towel.
I would really like to have a system mounted on the helicopter that would
pre-oil just before start up. I some time have periods on the airshow
circuit where the engine does not get started for several weeks and I
would like to pre-oil prior to starting and be able to do that from the
cockpit or possibly from a manual pump providing that I can keep the
weight down.

Just some random thoughts...

- Three pounds for an accumulator seems like a good reliable and reasonable
weight solution to me, if you just don't forget to charge it before each
engine shut down.

- I don't think a fuel pump will reliably pump cold aviation motor oil. Have
you experimented with one?

- Have you considered a tiny gear pump you could spin with a hand crank or
cordless drill during preflight?

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

- Have you considered a tiny gear pump you could spin with a hand crank or
cordless drill during preflight?

Now THAT'S CLEVER. Does any such thing exist?

Bill Daniels

On Dec 29, 11:58 am, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Maxwell" wrote in message

...

- Have you considered a tiny gear pump you could spin with a hand crank or
cordless drill during preflight?

Now THAT'S CLEVER. Does any such thing exist?

Bill Daniels

There are proper aircraft preoilers out there. They just cost
money. Go to http://www.oilamatic.com/engine-tlc.htm

Dan