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#51
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How does a wet cloth really help (scientifically) to survive an airplane crash?
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#52
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How does a wet cloth really help (scientifically) to survivean airplane crash?
On 5/16/2014 8:31 PM, Ann Marie Brest wrote:
It seems, from the references, that 90 seconds is the golden time period you need to get *out* of the burning aircraft. So, all it has to do is stay wet for a few minutes to do the intended job of helping to dissolve HCN gases. And then discard the cloth, as it's full of toxins. -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
#53
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How does a wet cloth really help (scientifically) to survivean airplane crash?
On 5/17/2014 5:39 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
As I understand it, this is akin to the major reason you're supposed to get out of a computer room if the Halon extinguishers are triggered. The Halon itself isn't particularly hazardous (at the concentrations used in these systems), but the combustion byproducts from burning plastics and etc. are really nasty. The Halon suppresses some of the flame reactions and stops the fire, but it doesn't get rid of the poisonous partially-combusted plastics and other decomposed flammables. The reason you want to get heck out of a Halon environment is that is displaces the oxygen so you have nothing to breathe. (It works on the "air" part of the old fire triangle). I've taken some fire training courses. Halon is low enough levels, that one can remain in the room. I've seen movies of a test dump. The guy looked a bit frieked out but was OK at the end of the movie. There were some system using carbon dioxide, and those displace oxygen. Halon works on the fourth side of the triangle, sustained chemical reaction. Actually fire tetrahedron. -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
#54
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How does a wet cloth really help (scientifically) to survive an airplane crash?
In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote: I've taken some fire training courses. Halon is low enough levels, that one can remain in the room. I've seen movies of a test dump. The guy looked a bit frieked out but was OK at the end of the movie. Price I pay for relying on 30+ year old memories. Halon works on the fourth side of the triangle, sustained chemical reaction. Actually fire tetrahedron. One of my mentors suggested a fire pentahedron. fuel, heat, oxidation material, chemical reaction, and Chief Officers. You take any one away and the fire goes out. -- ³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.² ‹ Aaron Levenstein |
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How does a wet cloth really help (scientifically) to survive anairplane crash?
On Sat, 17 May 2014 00:44:27 -0700, micky wrote:
...snip excellent presentation.... So you shouldn't be assuming things because something is missing from the articles you find, and more important, you should stop saying, WE can safely assume. Speak for yourself. Not for us. I HATE the 'expert' syndrome where we all must disavow ourselves of any knowledge, or input; the concepts are just too lofty for our peasant brains to fathom; and we must believe everything that has been written. That stuff is just like 'NEWS', can't always be trusted. One has to 'cull' for truth. Some other real examples: some of the experimental research done during the Communist era in Russia. Wasn't that experiment where the 'scientists' took a baby duck out into a submarine, hit it [the duck, not the submarine] with a hammer, and caused simultneous great distress to the mother duck all faked? just to continue funding for their 'research'. Sounded reasonable, too. |
#56
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How does a wet cloth really help (scientifically) to survive anairplane crash?
On Sat, 17 May 2014 03:44:27 -0400, micky wrote:
So you shouldn't be assuming things because something is missing from the articles you find, and more important, you should stop saying, WE can safely assume. Speak for yourself. Not for us. Again I must have not made myself clear. Clearly I googled and found plenty of articles which said that hydrogen cyanide is the killer and that the wet rag dissolved it - but that isn't my point to you in this post. Some of those articles I quoted were FAA summaries, others were air-safety brochures from the likes of Airbus & Boeing, while still others were peer-reviewed scientific papers (all of which were referenced). My point, that I must be not saying clearly, is that the alternate view (which you, and others espouse) has absolutely zero references backing it up. Again, I hope I am being clear here. I'm not saying the points that you and others espouse are wrong. I'm just saying that not one single paper has been provided in support of that alternate view. I think it's unfortunate that I said "we can safely assume" since you keep thinking that I'm assuming something that you don't assume. Again, trying to be very clear about what my point is, it's simply that nobody yet has provided a single reference that backs up the alternate view. Whether we can safely assume anything about that alternate view seems to be your point - but it's not mine. My point is that the alternative view is not supported by any facts which have been presented in this thread. Again, to be perfectly clear. I'm not saying that those facts don't exist. I'm just saying NOBODY can find a paper which supports those facts. I apologize for saying 'we can safely assume' because that sentence seems to throw people into a defensive mode. Remove that and replace it with something like "I have not seen any references which back up the view espoused" or something like that which simply says that the opinion has been stated but not backed up with anything concrete. So, I only concluded what I could conclude from the papers which I found, and referenced. Is my point clear yet? (If not, I apologize.) |
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How does a wet cloth really help (scientifically) to survive anairplane crash?
On Sat, 17 May 2014 07:03:04 -0700, RobertMacy wrote:
I HATE the 'expert' syndrome where we all must disavow ourselves of any knowledge, or input; the concepts are just too lofty for our peasant brains to fathom; and we must believe everything that has been written. That stuff is just like 'NEWS', can't always be trusted. One has to 'cull' for truth. I think you missed the point, and again, I apologize for misleading you. It's the LACK OF PROOF that is dominant here. Not proof taken out of context (which is what your example is portraying). For the hydrogen-cyanide-wet-cloth theory, I provided oodles of PDFs (from the FAA, from airplane manufacturers, from Fire Departments, and from universities) which backed up my statements. The alternate view has ZERO articles backing it up. What am I *supposed* to conclude about the fact that the alternative view has absolutely ZERO references backing it up? Given your example, it's like something that never happened that was also never printed in the NEWS. Since it never happened, and, likewise, since it never made it into the news, what does that make it (besides an urban myth)? I'm sorry if I'm not clear - so I repeat. What am I *supposed* to conclude from the proposed alternative view which has absolutely ZERO references backing it up? |
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How does a wet cloth really help (scientifically) to survive anairplane crash?
On Sat, 17 May 2014 06:49:09 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:
And then discard the cloth, as it's full of toxins. Actually, in one of the references I read (I think it was the OSHA one), it mentioned how to properly dispose of the hydrogen-cyanide-laced protective gear after it was used. |
#59
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How does a wet cloth really help (scientifically) to survive anairplane crash?
On Fri, 16 May 2014 23:16:38 -0800, Guv Bob wrote:
Logically, breathing through a wet cloth would also remove more particulate matter than through a dry cloth. Try blowing cigarette smoke thru a dry handkerchief and a wet one and you'll see a big difference. I have no problem with the logic - but it may also be an urban myth. What should we conclude from the fact that absolutely ZERO articles have been posted to this thread coming from the FAA to the airplane manufacturers to the airline-safety fire departments to the airline-safety research universities which back up this hypothesis? To repeat clearly, absolutely ZERO articles have been posted to this thread that report that smoke particles are a life-threatening danger to your breathing in an airplane cabin fire and that a wet towel can ameliorate that danger. The purpose of this thread is stated in the subject line: How does a wet cloth really help (scientifically) to survive an airplane crash? To be clear here, I'd be *glad* to believe that a wet cloth helps save your life by filtering out particles, but it's hard to believe that supposition when not a single one of us (me included) can find a single reliable industry reference that says so. |
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How does a wet cloth really help (scientifically) to survive anairplane crash?
On Sat, 17 May 2014 02:06:44 -0400, micky wrote:
Why do you think all that matters is if something is *immediately* dangerous? You're joking right? We're talking about an airplane crash cabin fire. And, you're saying all our conclusions are wrong because your aunt got cancer 30 years after moving downwind from a factory? I apologize, but I don't get the connection at all. |
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