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"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ... The Enlightenment wrote in message ... "Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ... The Enlightenment wrote in message ... The 801 had a innovations such as a multipoint direct in cylinder injection of the fuel and completely automatic control of mixture and boost. The pilot only had a throttle to opperate. It's installation in the 190 was excellent: the engine was tightly cowled to improve aerodynamics with airflow being provided by a geared fan opperating at about 3:1 to provide cooling. The exhausts were beautifully installed and provided an ejector effect to induce cooling and thrust. I believe that only one Soviet fighter is regarded to have achieved this level of perfection. Around the cowl was a circular oil tank that was armoured and thus protected the cylinder heads. It was thus a very tough battle damage resistent engine that provided the pilot with a massive piece of armour when going in head on against an american bombers 50s. The trouble is the initial trials were very bad thanks to engine over heating, at one point this threatened to have the entire program cancelled. It also seems the engineers in JG26 did most of the work in coming up with a good fix. The problem of this ambitious and effective installation were solved somehow then. The original had the cooling intake through a hollow of an enlarged propeller boss while the pilot suffered hot foot. The solution was to lenghten the nose and compromise by using a gear driven fan to reduce cowling inlet area to a minimum. You really are lacking in knowledge of the Fw190 development, the original prototype pilot landed complaining he felt he had his feet in the fire. Then came the cancellation of the preferred engine, the resultant redesign moved the cockpit further away from the engine. The extra weight caused a deterioration of handling characteristics, solved by increasing the wing area, the V5k and V5g prototypes. The larger wings were standardised in the tenth Fw190A-0 pre production model. Things like ducted spinners were tried early as well, the first prototype and then discarded. It sounds like you are not aware of the development cycle or you are not being clear. The FW190 had a number of heating problems with both its BMW 139 and 801 engines because of the aerodynamically ambitious installation. How am I to know which ones you are refering to becuase the ones associated with the BMW139 are the best known. The FW190 was originaly specified with a DB601 V12 or what was essentialy an enlarged version of a Pratt and Whitney designe known as the BMW 139. The DB601 option was cancelled due to anticipated shortages and the 139 was so troublesome it was decided to start all over again: the result was the BMW801 which was reliable. When the 801 was to be substituted the aircraft was redesigned to overcome C of G issues with the new engine while the cockpit was also moved to overcome the cabin heating issues. http://www.aviation-history.com/focke-wulf/fw190.html This sounds like the typical development cycle: note the exceptional problems the typhoon tempest series had, and I am and was quite aware of it. The cockpit was moved rewards to reduce the cabin heat problem. By the time JG26 had received Fw190s the "lengthening" of the nose had been done (which was actually moving the cockpit further aft) and the increase in wing size was being done. The cooling problems were overcome through the improvement of the cooling fan itself and the addition of removable cooling vents. Note the oil tank in radials was often armoured, since the oil also acted as a coolant, and a bullet through the oil tank was almost as bad as a bullet through the radiator of an inline engine. The much loved US Gruman Bearcat for instance was inspired and the P47 was built specifically to deal with the 190. The design brief for the Bearcat was heavily into fast climb, to intercept the incoming strikes, using the advances in ship's radar to quickly intercept hostiles. It was the response of the USN to carrier warfare in the Pacific not the FW190. The designers certainly inspected and flew a captured FW190 and were inspired to improve upon it. Yes there may have been a tactical reason for developing a high power to weight ratio aircraft but the FW190 demonstrated the concept of having excess power. I know this is really silly but the designers, if they did make a trip to Europe, saw more than the Fw190, they would have been exposed to other captured aircraft and the latest in British designs. North American was interested for example to design a lighter weight P-51, which emerged as the H model. But somehow it all comes back to the Fw190 alone. Irrelevant. I didn't bring up the P51 or its lightening program you just did then for whatever rhetorical reason. I heard the designer talking on one of those discovery channel things and he refered to the FW190. I merely stated that the P47 was designed to specifically deal with the FW190. I have read this reference made more than once and it must clarly refer to the P47C/D/D-25 version. I am looking for the reference again. I like the "excess power" claim, the Fw190A had 1,600 HP pulling around 7,500 pounds empty weight, the Spitfire V had around 1,500 HP pulling around 5,100 pounds of empty weight. The Fw190 was faster thanks to better aerodynamics, the sort of thing that made the Spitfire 30 to 40 mph faster than the Hurricane with the same engine and the P-51B around the same speed faster than the Spitfire with effectively the same engine. On the other hand the Spitfire could beat the Fw190 to 20,000 feet. Like all aircraft you had your trade offs. There is no such thing as a FW 190A. There is a FW 190A-1, FW190A-2 all the way through to A-14 I believe. Much of your data seems wrong or chronologically irrelevent. You fail to take into account differences in equiped weight as opposed to empty weight, the differences in what consitutes empty, loaded and equiped between aircaft of different nationalities and manufacture. Spitfire VB with Merlin 45 is given as producing 1440 hp and its empty weight as 5100 but its loaded weight 6650 so your figures for both spitfire and Fw190 are dubious. AFAIKS loaded weight has nothing to do with opperational weight! Was the FW 190 equiped with its home defense electronics for instance? The comparisons involving weight just can not be made without more time and caution. The FW190A-3 had an empty weight of 6400 and a maximum of 8300 with a power of either 1600 or 1700 depending on whether the BMW801 C or D was fitted. http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/a-3.htm You've given data for a FW190A-8 equiped with an FW190A-2 engine from a dodgy web page. http://www.aviation-history.com/focke-wulf/fw190.html The Bearcat, as it appeared, was very much in the Spitfire sort of arrangement, with a very high climb rate. It was designed to fight the war in the Pacific, largely below 20,000 feet, with characteristics optimised to defend its base willing to sacrifice range for example. The FW190 outclimbed the Spitfire V by 450 feet per minute. The P-47B was ordered in September 1940 and first flew on 6 May 1941. This was before the RAF encountered the FW190 on 27 September 1941 and over a year before one was captured, in July 1942. The first production P-47B was in December 1941. Rather hard to see the P-47 as built specifically unless the US was given all the information in 1940, and knew despite the major engine cooling problems the FW190A had that the program would be continued. Also note the P-47B was optimised to fight above 20,000 feet, the FW190A below 20,000 feet. Water injection was needed to cope with the FW at low altitude and perhaps this is what I am thinking of. As far as I can tell what is being thought of is an idealised view of the Fw190 which then becomes a benchmark with everyone else altering to fight it, but the Fw190 continually leading the way, despite being out performed. It was hardly outperformed for quite some time. It was never outperformed in roll rate though the P47C onwards and FW190A series were probably matched in this area. The P47B (of which only 170 were built an which never seemed to have seen service at all ) was a dramatically weaker aricraft in terms of roll rate and manouverability to the P47C/P47D which first flew an inconclusive combat in March 43 and entered service with Zemke in Jan 43. Thus there was ample time for RAF combate expereience to have been fed into the P47C program. It would be odd if there was not such a system in place at all. Presumably the introduction of paddle bladed propellers to the P-47 was a reaction to the outstanding rate of climb of the Fw190, particularly above 20,000 feet, correct? Both water injection and paddle bladed propellors with cooling cuffs were needed to improve low altitude perfomance where the P47 was initialy at a speed disadvantage. P-47B. This was the first production model, and 171 were built. Deliveries started late in 1942, and some went into action in Europe on April 8, 1943. In combat, the P-47B-RE had inadequate climbing and maneuverability, but it had plenty of speed and firepower. It also had excellent diving capability, and its heavy structure could absorb terrific punishment. Its wingspan was 40 feet, 9 inches; area, 300 square feet; gross weight, 13,360 pounds; top speed, 429mph at 27,800 feet. The P47C and P47D made dramatic improvements over the B model that relate to an 13 inch extension to the engine position. I have seen references more than once that some P47 development preceded on the basis of besting the FW 190A (roll rate I believe). The 13 inch extension was credited with a major improvement in manouverabillity and entered production for the P47C although some P47B airframes were modiefied with an 8 inch extension for maintenance reasons. SNIP The Ju388L was in production for around 6 months in 1944, with around 10 converted from Ju188 and 60 built new. Those 600 engines must have had a very short lifetime if all they did was power the Ju388L. The night fighter version appears to be more prototypes than production. Not all aircraft entered service. All the sources i have seen credit it with a production run of 300. I note none of the "sources" are provided, only the claim of multiple sources, the Ju388L was not a high priority item in 1944, the need was for fighters, the jets could take over reconnaissance, production numbers were of the order of 60 to 70. Where are your sources? According to this source we are both wrong. http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero...unkers_388.htm Under the "Hubertus" program of 1944, plans called for production of 300-400 Ju-388s a month at seven different manufacturers. But only 176 were completed by the war's end, mostly at Allgemeine Transportanlagen Gesellschaft in the Leipzig suburb of Mockau The night fighter did not enter service as the BMW801T version was no faster than a standard Ju 88G7 with BMW801D at the altitudes British bombers could fly at. It was an iron in the fire should the B29 appear. The US could have deployed hundreds of B-29s in Europe in 1944, given what appeared in the Pacific. The JU388J prototype did not fly until early 1944 and needed a new type of pressure cabin given the radar being fitted. The Germans had considerable problems designing good pressure cabins, and work was slow. The J version was not an iron in the fire, more like the metal to make the axe to chop down the tree to build the fire to put the iron in. There were plenty of pressure cabine aircraft produced. They were simply reduced in number for economcy reasons. The Me109G-5 was produced in large numbers but not as large numbers as its unpressurised version the Me 109G6. The TA 152 was ofcourse pressurised as was the Me 262. Presumably any problems ecountered during development of German aircraft is proof to you of the failure of the type. Thus if a prototype leaked air due to faulty sealing foam then that is all the proof you need? Finally the Ju 388 was not needed. There were no B29s in Europe. The Me 262B with radar would have dealt with it in anycase. The Jumo 004D with duplex injectors (overcoming high altitude thin air flameouts) were also entering production and this would have pushed the aircrafts opperational altitude well above the B29s service ceiling. Even without this it was capable of reaching the B29. (The Ju 388 seems to have had the same type of periscopic sighting system as used on the A26 invader only it had twin 13.1mm MG in a remote tail turret) However Fock-Wulf decided to install water cooled V12s into the Fw 190 to get high altitude performance. The 432 mph Fw 190D9 had a jumo 213A enigine but the Fw190D11 and Fw190D12 (only 70 entered service) had a Jumo 213E engine with the same two stage intercooler arrangement as the Merlin in the Mustang and could manage 460mph. Be careful here, the later versions of the D series are mainly paper projects or prototypes. And the WWII engines used a water glycol cooling mixture, rather like many modern motor vehicles, hence liquid cooled, not water cooled. A few dozen of the FW190D-12 entered service. Deliveries started in Feb 1945 so there is little record of them. Even less entered service than the Ta 152H It would be good to actually back this up, the information I have is they were first made in March 1945 which means they missed service. The D-10 replaced the fuselage machine guns with a 30mm cannon firing through the propeller spinner. Couple of prototypes The D-11 was a D-9 with the Jumo213F with MW-50, several prototypes built. It apparently had 2 20mm and 2 30 mm cannon. The D-12 was the ground attack version, the D-10 armament, with an armoured installation of the Jumo 213F, production began in March 1945. It is doubtful any actually entered service. Fw190A/D production in March 1945 is said to be 204, and zero in April. The D-13 with the Jumo213EB and 2 20 mm cannon, 2 prototypes built. 3 x 20mm canon. Models after the D9 series dropped the cowling guns but added a propellor hub guns either 20mm, 30mm. Sorry, typo the 2 should have been a 3 20 mm cannon. The D-14 with the DB603A engine, 2 built. Jumo 213 and DB603 engines had interchangeable mounts and were available as 'power eggs' complete with integrated anular radiators. The D-15 with the DB603EB engine, paper project. Oddly for such an engine seems to have been heavily armoured for ground attack and torpedo bombing (they were used by the Soviets after the war for this) Apparently the annular radiators of the German V12s were quite battle damage tollerant as well as aerodynanic. It seems unlikely the designers would put lots of high altitude features into a ground attack version. It seems to have been intended to be a multirole combat aircraft. Alternatively the information being presented is faulty. The same type of engine jumo 213E with more performance ended up in the 475mph TA 152 H0 and TA 152H1 (H-1 had wet fuel tanks in its wooden wings for greater range) as this had very large wings it could not only fly extremely high it could out turn any Allied fighter. The Ta152H-1 had an empty weight of around 8,900 pounds supported by a wing area of 251 square feet, The Spitfire XIV had an empty weight of around 6,600 pounds and wing area of 242 square feet. I doubt the TA152H with its long wings would win a turning contest with a Spitfire XIV except at very high altitudes. When comparing "empty weights", you have to be careful about what is included in the figures. Depending on the definition, weapons, radio gear and other operational equipment might be included or not. I'd only seriously compare empty weights if I have a complete weight break-down where every item is listed seperately. Unfortunately, for some types such data is hard to find. In other words rather than note it the Ta152H-1 had an empty weight around a ton lower than the Spitfire and indeed around the loaded weight of the Spitfire XIV you will announce that shock horror, the Spitfire could have weighed a little more empty. Anything but actually confront the problems with the "best turning" claim. What does empty mean? Does it include all radios, guns, dingies etc that can add up to hundreds of pounds? The long wings of the Ta 152H reduced the fantastic roll rate compared to the Fw 190A and Fw 190D. To put it mildly, given the inevitable effects of long wings and the need to watch wing loadings. Assuming that the wing loading of the TA 152H was higher than the Spit XIV (assuming Griffon 65 variant to allow the spit half a chance to match speed) then the higher aspect ratio wings of the TA152 might still be more efficient. Because of the higher aspect ratio they would be more efficient and probably have less induced drag so the aircraft would wash of less airspeed. Ah I see, the claim of always is now "might" no real information just a whole lot of I hopes. Find a test that proves that the Spit could out turn the Ta 152H. By the way just how much faster was the Ta152 after it had used it MW-50 and GM-1, say compared to the Spitfire HF IX? Or for that matter the Spitfire VII? GM-1 in particular was an excellent compensation for the lower octane fuels available to the Luftwaffe and MW-50 to an lessor extent. GM1 added a lot of weight but it was the only way to get around the octan lag the Germans suffered. Allies simply loaded up with 150 octane and found that the slight improvement that GM-1 would have offered with fuel this good was not worth the weightmof adding things such as GM1. There was some 10 minutes of GM-1 available as I recall. Turning circle is usually measured at sustained speed without loosing altitude. For instance a Spit might turn inside a Me 109F but the 109 pilot could pull G, use his automatic slats to warn him of incipient stall and bleed of speed faster to turn inside the spit anyway. Of course you don't get to play this trick indefinetly. I like this, please show all those Bf109 pilots that survived turning contests with a Spitfire. How many did so regularly. The Bf109 was easily out turned by the Spitfire, unless the Bf109 was moving much slower, end of story. The Spitfire had the further advantage of a much better signalled stall than either the Fw190 of Bf109. The Bf109 wing slats had a habit of deploying asymmetrically, which caused aiming problems and was a fun effect near the stall. I think that might be incorrect. A 109 might turn inside a Spitfire using this techniqe but he presumably had only 1 turn or less to do it since he would loose energy and speed and thus allow the spitfire to regain the upper hand. The Me 109 might have had a shakey stall due to its slats but this also warning of incipient stall. Furthermore the spitfire had a nasty stall and could spin away. The spits advantage was its big wing, made possible by high octane fuel restoring the power to weight ratio it would otherwise have losts with its small discplacement light weight merlin engine. The wing had a habbit of twisting and increasing the washout angle thus warning the pilot. **************** PS most links work. http://www.jg53.com/html/history/air...axis-bf109.htm I dispute your claim that the Spit could outturn a 109. The reason being, any test that showed the Spit could outturn a 109 was done at a constant speed (Minimum radius of turn without loss of height) . This is a flawed test because in combat the 109 pilot used the tactic of dumping speed rapidly and making a slower and sharper turn than the Spit was capable of. Remember the 109 had those leading edge slats? That's what they were for! Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- The Spitfire had a lower wing loading than the Bf 109 and this would normally give the better turning circle. However the 109 had help with it's leading edge slats which gave a lower stalling speed, and thus was able to turn tighter than a simple comparison of wing areas might suggest ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Two very different appraisals of the turning circles of the Spitfire and Bf109 can be found in the books "Fighter" by Len Deighton and "The Most Dangerous Enemy" by Stephen Bungay. The former has a diagram showing the Bf109s turning circle to be inside that of the Spitfire (750 feet and 880 feet respectively) while the latter has a diagram showing the opposite (850 feet and 700 feet respectively). Crucially all the tests of mock combats between captured Bf109s and Spitfires always give the Spitfire the edge. http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/spitcom.htm Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Though the Spitfire had a tighter turn radius, the advantage was more theoretical than real since the Messerschmitt's automatic wing slats warned the pilot of impending stalls, enabling average pilots to get the most out of the machine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- http://people.history.ohio-state.edu...b/6252ls13.htm Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- However the 109 had a distinct advantage in manoeuvrability and turning circle at low speeds. The design of the 109, with it's leading edge slats gave a lower stalling speed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/jazzitoria/aspit-2.htm MANOEUVRABILITY SPITFIRE TURNING DIAMETER = 1,760 feet. BF 109 TURNING DIAMETER = 1,500 ft. A Spitfire pilot will tell you the Spit could turn inside the 109. A Messerschmitt pilot will tell you the 109 could turn inside the Spitfire! The truth is that both designs were capable of turning circles that would cause the pilot to "black-out" as the blood drained from the head. The pilot who could force himself to the limits without losing consciousness would emerge the victor from a turning battle, and the Spitfire pilots had supreme faith in their machine. The British aeronautical press told them that the wings came off the 109 in a dive or in tight turns, untrue but based on some early wing failures in the 109`s predecessor the Bf108. However the 109 had a distinct advantage in manoeuvrability and turning circle at low speeds. The design of the 109, with it's leading edge slats gave a lower stalling speed. The 109 was very forgiving if stalled, with no tendency for a stall to develop into an uncontrollable spin, something that the Spitfire was prone to. Thus a Messerschmitt pilot was more at home at low speeds than his British counterpart. 5. As for the 109G-2 vs the Mk IX just look at the performance graphs, the 109G-2 is faster than the MK IX right up to 23000 ft. The 109 also outclimbs the Spit below 10000 ft and they are roughly equal between 10000 ft and 18000 ft. Once again the Spit doesn't dominate until the higher altitudes. By the way what is stopping the Spitfire pulling G as well? 1 probably can't wash of speed as fast 2 It isn't as manouverable at low speed. Note this would refer to the Me 109F series. Most sources rate the Ta152H series top speed in the 460 to 470mph range, the using MW-50 and GM-1. What is the source that claims the wings were wooden as opposed to metal? You can tell a Fw 190D9 from a Fw 190D11/D12/D13 by the latter lacking cowl guns and having an oval air intage instead of round and using a cannon firing through the propeller boss. One of these (The Fw 190 D13 I think) was to end up with a long barreled Mk 103 30mm cannon as a tank buster. It was this aircraft that I guess would have finaly replaced the Stuka. The D-12 would be the replacement for the G model. Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email. |
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"Presidente Alcazar" wrote in message ... On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:34:17 +1000, "Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote: By the way what is stopping the Spitfire pulling G as well? The emotional need to have a Nazi superweapon beat the degenerate allies by means of the customary subjective distortion. No, the fact that the Me 109 can turn inside a Spitfire at low speed due to its lower stalling speed. |
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"Greg Hennessy" wrote in message ... On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:55:50 -0400, Cub Driver wrote: The XP-47 was ordered in 1939, and the XP-47B with a PW 2800 engine in January 1940. Did the USAAC even know about the FW-190 in January 1940? As the P47 did not enter combat service till March 10 1943 as the P47C perhaps they did by then. I'd consider that unlikely, but facts like that have never stopped our nazi loving BS merchant here. Please appologise: "Originally designed to defeat the FW-190 series fighters, the XP-47J certainly would have exceeded this requirement. In point of fact, with its critical Mach of .83, it had the potential to chase down Me-262's by utilizing a shallow dive, taking advantage of its superior service ceiling." The XP47J entered service as the P47M. http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/Sev...Republic7.html I would say that the two American fighters were sui generis: The Bigger the Better. I once read an article where the XP-72 was described as something which would have given AS Yakovlev a massive coronary. greg -- Es ist mein Teil - nein Mein Teil - nein Denn das ist mein Teil - nein Mein Teil - nein |
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The Enlightenment wrote:
"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message snip The Bearcat, as it appeared, was very much in the Spitfire sort of arrangement, with a very high climb rate. It was designed to fight the war in the Pacific, largely below 20,000 feet, with characteristics optimised to defend its base willing to sacrifice range for example. The FW190 outclimbed the Spitfire V by 450 feet per minute. Which FW-190, and which Spit V? The typical FW-190A subtype certainly outclimbed the typical 1941-42 Spit V with max. boost of +12, but not every Spit V and not at every altitude, or at every period. A later Mk. V with max. boost increased to +16 is a different matter, and an LF. V with cropped Mk. 45M or 50M with max. boost increased to +18 is a very different animal indeed, below critical altitude. A FW-190A is generally superior to a Spit V, but you need to be fairly specific. In other words rather than note it the Ta152H-1 had an empty weight around a ton lower than the Spitfire and indeed around the loaded weight of the Spitfire XIV you will announce that shock horror, the Spitfire could have weighed a little more empty. Anything but actually confront the problems with the "best turning" claim. What does empty mean? Does it include all radios, guns, dingies etc that can add up to hundreds of pounds? Well, let's see. In the case of a Spit 21, tare weight is 6,923 lb, "Total Typical Removable Military Load" (4 x 20mm guns, ammo, sight, radio, IFF receiver & detonator, clock, incendiary bomb, crowbar, gun camera, oxygen clinder, dinghy, first aid kit, pilot and parachute) amounts to 1,321.5 lb., then there's 857 lb. of internal fuel plus 81 lb. of engine oil, for a normal combat take-off weight of 9,182.5 lb. The last is the most useful value. Spit XIVscame in around 8,400 - 8,500 lb., Spit IXs came in around 7,500 lb,. and Spit Vs about 6,500 lb. respectively. Turning circle is usually measured at sustained speed without loosing altitude. For instance a Spit might turn inside a Me 109F but the 109 pilot could pull G, use his automatic slats to warn him of incipient stall and bleed of speed faster to turn inside the spit anyway. Of course you don't get to play this trick indefinetly. I like this, please show all those Bf109 pilots that survived turning contests with a Spitfire. How many did so regularly. The Bf109 was easily out turned by the Spitfire, unless the Bf109 was moving much slower, end of story. The Spitfire had the further advantage of a much better signalled stall than either the Fw190 of Bf109. The Bf109 wing slats had a habit of deploying asymmetrically, which caused aiming problems and was a fun effect near the stall. I think that might be incorrect. A 109 might turn inside a Spitfire using this techniqe but he presumably had only 1 turn or less to do it since he would loose energy and speed and thus allow the spitfire to regain the upper hand. The Me 109 might have had a shakey stall due to its slats but this also warning of incipient stall. Furthermore the spitfire had a nasty stall and could spin away. I've never seen any source claim that the Spit had a nasty stall. You certainly can find no mention of it in A&AEE or AFDU handling tests. The spits advantage was its big wing, made possible by high octane fuel restoring the power to weight ratio it would otherwise have losts with its small discplacement light weight merlin engine. The wing had a habbit of twisting and increasing the washout angle thus warning the pilot. **************** PS most links work. http://www.jg53.com/html/history/air...axis-bf109.htm I dispute your claim that the Spit could outturn a 109. The reason being, any test that showed the Spit could outturn a 109 was done at a constant speed (Minimum radius of turn without loss of height) . This is a flawed test because in combat the 109 pilot used the tactic of dumping speed rapidly and making a slower and sharper turn than the Spit was capable of. Remember the 109 had those leading edge slats? That's what they were for! Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- The Spitfire had a lower wing loading than the Bf 109 and this would normally give the better turning circle. However the 109 had help with it's leading edge slats which gave a lower stalling speed, and thus was able to turn tighter than a simple comparison of wing areas might suggest ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Two very different appraisals of the turning circles of the Spitfire and Bf109 can be found in the books "Fighter" by Len Deighton and "The Most Dangerous Enemy" by Stephen Bungay. The former has a diagram showing the Bf109s turning circle to be inside that of the Spitfire (750 feet and 880 feet respectively) while the latter has a diagram showing the opposite (850 feet and 700 feet respectively). Crucially all the tests of mock combats between captured Bf109s and Spitfires always give the Spitfire the edge. http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/spitcom.htm Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Though the Spitfire had a tighter turn radius, the advantage was more theoretical than real since the Messerschmitt's automatic wing slats warned the pilot of impending stalls, enabling average pilots to get the most out of the machine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- http://people.history.ohio-state.edu...b/6252ls13.htm Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- However the 109 had a distinct advantage in manoeuvrability and turning circle at low speeds. The design of the 109, with it's leading edge slats gave a lower stalling speed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/jazzitoria/aspit-2.htm MANOEUVRABILITY SPITFIRE TURNING DIAMETER = 1,760 feet. BF 109 TURNING DIAMETER = 1,500 ft. A Spitfire pilot will tell you the Spit could turn inside the 109. A Messerschmitt pilot will tell you the 109 could turn inside the Spitfire! The truth is that both designs were capable of turning circles that would cause the pilot to "black-out" as the blood drained from the head. The pilot who could force himself to the limits without losing consciousness would emerge the victor from a turning battle, and the Spitfire pilots had supreme faith in their machine. The British aeronautical press told them that the wings came off the 109 in a dive or in tight turns, untrue but based on some early wing failures in the 109`s predecessor the Bf108. However the 109 had a distinct advantage in manoeuvrability and turning circle at low speeds. The design of the 109, with it's leading edge slats gave a lower stalling speed. The 109 was very forgiving if stalled, with no tendency for a stall to develop into an uncontrollable spin, something that the Spitfire was prone to. Thus a Messerschmitt pilot was more at home at low speeds than his British counterpart. Not according to the following charts: http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/ea...pit109turn.gif and http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/ea...t109turn18.gif Obviously, this applies only to the Spit I and Me-109E-3, and to an altitude of 12,000 feet, but since we're concerned with stall speeds, the Spit is superior there as well - see the "radius of turn at stall", as well as the stall boundary of the first chart. 5. As for the 109G-2 vs the Mk IX just look at the performance graphs, the 109G-2 is faster than the MK IX right up to 23000 ft. The 109 also outclimbs the Spit below 10000 ft and they are roughly equal between 10000 ft and 18000 ft. Once again the Spit doesn't dominate until the higher altitudes. Lets look at those performance graphs: http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/ea...pit9v109g.html and also he http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/109gtac.html It's a reall shame that "Fuller's P.R.O. Page" appears to no longer be in existence, as he had put up the various FW-190A flight tests done by the RAF. Guy |
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On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 00:36:23 +0900, Gernot Hassenpflug
wrote: Nice sig. salutes, and falls off chair backward pulling notepad and tangled earphones and cup of tea along Ah, Bart, truly the king of all the pentium overclockers. Gavin Bailey -- But, first, want speed. Bart not greedy as all know. 250MHz enough. I attempt use SGI chip in MB. But chip not fit, then I bend pins. Shove in MB hard. Now apply hammer. Yeah, sit down, ****er! Power on, go BEEEEEP! - Bart Kwan En |
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On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 17:54:46 GMT, "The Enlightenment"
wrote: No, the fact that the Me 109 can turn inside a Spitfire at low speed due to its lower stalling speed. The balance of surviving test reports (e.g. the 109 E3 tested in 1940, varoius AFDU reports throughout the war years) and aircrew memoir directly contradicts this. You should be aware that the statements on the web page you quote on the effect of the 109's leading-edge slats on improving turning performance for inexperienced pilots are directly contradicted by Bf109 pilot's statements, e.g. Erwin Leykauf - and while he states he could out-turn Spitfires, he makes it clear that this was not done by sustained maximal rate turns, but by cutting across the turn for fractions of the radius while alternatively easing back to avoid the stall. Meanwhile, I'm well aware of your particular bias on such subjects. Shame the Nazis lost, eh? Gavin Bailey -- But, first, want speed. Bart not greedy as all know. 250MHz enough. I attempt use SGI chip in MB. But chip not fit, then I bend pins. Shove in MB hard. Now apply hammer. Yeah, sit down, ****er! Power on, go BEEEEEP! - Bart Kwan En |
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The Enlightenment wrote in message ...
"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ... The Enlightenment wrote in message ... The P-47B was ordered in September 1940 and first flew on 6 May 1941. This was before the RAF encountered the FW190 on 27 September 1941 and over a year before one was captured, in July 1942. The first production P-47B was in December 1941. Rather hard to see the P-47 as built specifically unless the US was given all the information in 1940, and knew despite the major engine cooling problems the FW190A had that the program would be continued. First combat was 10 March 1943. This was the P47C. The P47B models appear to have only been used for training. So please tell us all the major changes in the P-47 series after 1940, new wing?, new fuselage? The fundamental reality is the P-47 was designed without any input from Focke Wulf. Then came the inevitable wartime improvements, which all fighters went through, or is the claim the FW190A-1 is the same as the FW190A-14? Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email. |
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The Enlightenment wrote in message ...
"Greg Hennessy" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:55:50 -0400, Cub Driver wrote: The XP-47 was ordered in 1939, and the XP-47B with a PW 2800 engine in January 1940. Did the USAAC even know about the FW-190 in January 1940? As the P47 did not enter combat service till March 10 1943 as the P47C perhaps they did by then. Of course the idea the US could redesign (defined as something as significant as water injection, most others define it as major changes) a fighter and place it into production within a month is the cornerstone of the claim. The wonder US production engineers (swamped Germany with numbers claims) versus the wonder German aircraft engineers (always a head in quality claims). Cliche central returns, the P-47 was designed without input from Germany. I'd consider that unlikely, but facts like that have never stopped our nazi loving BS merchant here. Please appologise: Ok we apologise that despite all our efforts you are going to continually ignore reality. "Originally designed to defeat the FW-190 series fighters, the XP-47J certainly would have exceeded this requirement. In point of fact, with its critical Mach of .83, it had the potential to chase down Me-262's by utilizing a shallow dive, taking advantage of its superior service ceiling." The XP47J entered service as the P47M. http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/Sev...Republic7.html Ah yes we now go from the P-47B and C models to the whole one, 1, single, only, XP-47J model. Backed by one person's opinion since they mention the wonder Fw190. J model approved in June 1943 as a lightweight version, only 6 guns fitted with reduced ammunition for example, less fuel tankage, used the sprint, 2,800 HP, engine, cooling fan fitted, flew in November 1943 and managed to do over 500 mph in Republic's hands in trials in August 1944. A 70% retooling needed to put it into production. Meantime the standard P-47D was modified to take the bigger engine, with130 were built as P-47Ms, with minimal modifications, in the final quarter of 1944. So of course the XP-47J was not the prototype of the P-47M. Oh yes the Spitfire had a higher limiting mach number, but rather poor initial acceleration in a dive, for when it comes to diving onto Me262s. Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email. |
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The Enlightenment wrote in message ...
"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ... The Enlightenment wrote in message ... "Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ... The Enlightenment wrote in message ... The 801 had a innovations such as a multipoint direct in cylinder injection of the fuel and completely automatic control of mixture and boost. The pilot only had a throttle to opperate. It's installation in the 190 was excellent: the engine was tightly cowled to improve aerodynamics with airflow being provided by a geared fan opperating at about 3:1 to provide cooling. The exhausts were beautifully installed and provided an ejector effect to induce cooling and thrust. I believe that only one Soviet fighter is regarded to have achieved this level of perfection. Around the cowl was a circular oil tank that was armoured and thus protected the cylinder heads. It was thus a very tough battle damage resistent engine that provided the pilot with a massive piece of armour when going in head on against an american bombers 50s. The trouble is the initial trials were very bad thanks to engine over heating, at one point this threatened to have the entire program cancelled. It also seems the engineers in JG26 did most of the work in coming up with a good fix. The problem of this ambitious and effective installation were solved somehow then. The original had the cooling intake through a hollow of an enlarged propeller boss while the pilot suffered hot foot. The solution was to lenghten the nose and compromise by using a gear driven fan to reduce cowling inlet area to a minimum. You really are lacking in knowledge of the Fw190 development, the original prototype pilot landed complaining he felt he had his feet in the fire. Then came the cancellation of the preferred engine, the resultant redesign moved the cockpit further away from the engine. The extra weight caused a deterioration of handling characteristics, solved by increasing the wing area, the V5k and V5g prototypes. The larger wings were standardised in the tenth Fw190A-0 pre production model. Things like ducted spinners were tried early as well, the first prototype and then discarded. It sounds like you are not aware of the development cycle or you are not being clear. The FW190 had a number of heating problems with both its BMW 139 and 801 engines because of the aerodynamically ambitious installation. How am I to know which ones you are refering to becuase the ones associated with the BMW139 are the best known. Let us see now, we are talking about the versions that ended up with JG26 in mid 1941, but you are unclear about which engine was powering them is this the latest claim? The fact the service engineer officers had to do much of the work sorting out the over heating problems? So instead we drop back to the V1 and V2 prototypes of 1939. The FW190 was originaly specified with a DB601 V12 or what was essentialy an enlarged version of a Pratt and Whitney designe known as the BMW 139. The DB601 option was cancelled due to anticipated shortages and the 139 was so troublesome it was decided to start all over again: the result was the BMW801 which was reliable. When the 801 was to be substituted the aircraft was redesigned to overcome C of G issues with the new engine while the cockpit was also moved to overcome the cabin heating issues. http://www.aviation-history.com/focke-wulf/fw190.html This sounds like the typical development cycle: note the exceptional problems the typhoon tempest series had, and I am and was quite aware of it. The cockpit was moved rewards to reduce the cabin heat problem. Ah yes, the need to rewrite history to cope with the problems with overclaiming. The original FW190 prototypes used the lighter engine, the BMW139, when it was cancelled this left the BMW801, which was heavier, moving the cockpit aft was a major component in restoring centre of gravity, with the added bonus of reducing cockpit heating, and for that matter exhaust fumes. See for example the URL you posted but apparently chose not to read. The Fw190 program came close to cancellation because of the heating problems, the Typhoon program came close to cancellation because of engine and airframe problems, the Tempest program was not in danger of cancellation. Check out the difference in fuselage length between the FW190V1 and FW190A-1 for an idea of the "lengthening". By the time JG26 had received Fw190s the "lengthening" of the nose had been done (which was actually moving the cockpit further aft) and the increase in wing size was being done. The cooling problems were overcome through the improvement of the cooling fan itself and the addition of removable cooling vents. Try and stay on topic, the fundamental reality is JG26 initially received the BMW801 version with a mixture of small and large wing designs, before the large wing design was standardised. They then had to make a major effort to solve engine heating problems. Note the oil tank in radials was often armoured, since the oil also acted as a coolant, and a bullet through the oil tank was almost as bad as a bullet through the radiator of an inline engine. The much loved US Gruman Bearcat for instance was inspired and the P47 was built specifically to deal with the 190. The design brief for the Bearcat was heavily into fast climb, to intercept the incoming strikes, using the advances in ship's radar to quickly intercept hostiles. It was the response of the USN to carrier warfare in the Pacific not the FW190. The designers certainly inspected and flew a captured FW190 and were inspired to improve upon it. Yes there may have been a tactical reason for developing a high power to weight ratio aircraft but the FW190 demonstrated the concept of having excess power. I know this is really silly but the designers, if they did make a trip to Europe, saw more than the Fw190, they would have been exposed to other captured aircraft and the latest in British designs. North American was interested for example to design a lighter weight P-51, which emerged as the H model. But somehow it all comes back to the Fw190 alone. Irrelevant. I didn't bring up the P51 or its lightening program you just did then for whatever rhetorical reason. Yes change the subject, just ignore the idea there were other influences out there. I heard the designer talking on one of those discovery channel things and he refered to the FW190. Ah yes, the discovery channel, heard it on the internet as well, and, of course, the idea "the designer", all one of him apparently might have mentioned other designs is discarded. Only the Fw190 is allowed to be mentioned, the idea other designers were involved and looking at other aircraft is ignored. I merely stated that the P47 was designed to specifically deal with the FW190. I have read this reference made more than once and it must clarly refer to the P47C/D/D-25 version. I am looking for the reference again. Let us understand this, the P-47 design is apparently the option to add water injection into the engine, if this is the case then the Fw190A series was clearly designed to cope with the P-47, like mounting the engine 15cm further forward in the A-5 version of early 1943, the lighter wing of the A-6 version, with 2 20 mm MG151 cannon in each wing, the upgrading to 13mm machine guns in the A-7 in late 1943, the use of GM-1 in the A-8 version, clearly designed to combat the P-47's high altitude performance, agreed? This is very amusing, I wonder if the various paint jobs, the all metal affairs, will be classified as "designed". Basic rule, any change to an allied fighter is because of the FW190, just ignore reality, it is just a "mere" point. I like the "excess power" claim, the Fw190A had 1,600 HP pulling around 7,500 pounds empty weight, the Spitfire V had around 1,500 HP pulling around 5,100 pounds of empty weight. The Fw190 was faster thanks to better aerodynamics, the sort of thing that made the Spitfire 30 to 40 mph faster than the Hurricane with the same engine and the P-51B around the same speed faster than the Spitfire with effectively the same engine. On the other hand the Spitfire could beat the Fw190 to 20,000 feet. Like all aircraft you had your trade offs. There is no such thing as a FW 190A. There is a FW 190A-1, FW190A-2 all the way through to A-14 I believe. Ok, noted, in future I will expect you to quote the designs to the accuracy you have decided here, so when quoting claims remember it is the Fw190A-7/R6 sort of things. Assuming the same standards are to be applied to you. I used the generic Fw190 just like I used the generic Spitfire V, given the V came in all sorts of versions, including clipped wings. I note that the Fw190 starts significantly heavier than the Spitfire, and no amount of "they weighed different things" is going to wave away over a ton difference in less than 4 tons. Much of your data seems wrong or chronologically irrelevent. In other words you cannot answer it so need to ignore it. You fail to take into account differences in equiped weight as opposed to empty weight, the differences in what consitutes empty, loaded and equiped between aircaft of different nationalities and manufacture. Spitfire VB with Merlin 45 is given as producing 1440 hp and its empty weight as 5100 but its loaded weight 6650 so your figures for both spitfire and Fw190 are dubious. Yes folks, the great claim is the Fw190 had excess power, whatever that means, supersonic in level flight perhaps, or at least unable to use full engine power, after all it is in "excess", instead we rush off into semantics, unless the weights are to the ounce they are going to be ignored, note there were no weights produced for the Fw190A. By the way the Merlin output varied with height, for example, 1,470 HP at 9,250 feet, 1,585 at 2,750 feet, 1,415 at 14,000 feet for one version. Given the obvious desire for absolute correctness you demand of others please tell us the altitude you are referring to. The BMW 801C-0 used in the FW190V5 prototypes was rated at 1,660 HP, as was the 801C-1 in the FW190A-0 series. AFAIKS loaded weight has nothing to do with opperational weight! Was the FW 190 equiped with its home defense electronics for instance? Ah yes, I await the claim the Fw190 had problems say because it was carrying 2 parachutes. The comparisons involving weight just can not be made without more time and caution. By the way, the decision to claim "excess power" has to take into account weight, but this is going to be ignored for the FW190, Funny isn't it? The FW190A-3 had an empty weight of 6400 and a maximum of 8300 with a power of either 1600 or 1700 depending on whether the BMW801 C or D was fitted. http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/a-3.htm By the way I presume you have noted the way I left the types being compared as generic and also the use of "around" to tell people I am making broad comparisons, not the FW190A-5/U9 versus the temperate climate Spitfire LF VC with clipped wings using a rotol propeller (40 pounds lighter than a de Haviland propeller)? Spitfire VA weights, tare 4,981 pounds, take off 6,416, max permissible 6,700 pounds, or in other words the best part of a ton lighter than the Fw190A-4, something like 20% less weight with around 10% less power. So the Spitfire wins the "excess power" game, this is becoming quite funny. The heavyweight of the Spitfire V series was the VC, tare 5,081 pounds, take of 7,106.5 pounds, max permissible 7,300 pounds. Given the addition of water injection in the P-47 means the fighter was designed to specifically deal with the Fw190 do we add the extra horsepower in the BMW engine means the Fw190 was specifically designed to match the P-47, or Spitfire or whatever? You've given data for a FW190A-8 equiped with an FW190A-2 engine from a dodgy web page. http://www.aviation-history.com/focke-wulf/fw190.html Ah I like this, further above the URL is given is good, now it is said to be dodgy. Simply put I used generic figures, given the range of variants in the FW190A series and the Spitfires. Even using the more specific weights they consistently show the Spitfire had a better power to weight ratio, the "excess power" idea. Live with it instead of trying to change the subject. The Bearcat, as it appeared, was very much in the Spitfire sort of arrangement, with a very high climb rate. It was designed to fight the war in the Pacific, largely below 20,000 feet, with characteristics optimised to defend its base willing to sacrifice range for example. The FW190 outclimbed the Spitfire V by 450 feet per minute. I like this, at zero feet, 10,000 feet, 20,000 feet, 30,000 feet, 40,000 feet, 100,000 feet, must be specific after all, is it the D version of the Fw190 versus the Spitfire I for example? I am quite comfortable that there were areas of the flight envelope where the FW190 could out climb the Spitfire, the trouble for the FW190 was 20,000 feet and above, so the Spitfire could usually out climb it to 20,000 feet. Live with the reality the Bearcat was designed to defend radar equipped aircraft carriers, intercepting incoming strikes under control from the carrier. The P-47B was ordered in September 1940 and first flew on 6 May 1941. This was before the RAF encountered the FW190 on 27 September 1941 and over a year before one was captured, in July 1942. The first production P-47B was in December 1941. Rather hard to see the P-47 as built specifically unless the US was given all the information in 1940, and knew despite the major engine cooling problems the FW190A had that the program would be continued. Also note the P-47B was optimised to fight above 20,000 feet, the FW190A below 20,000 feet. Water injection was needed to cope with the FW at low altitude and perhaps this is what I am thinking of. As far as I can tell what is being thought of is an idealised view of the Fw190 which then becomes a benchmark with everyone else altering to fight it, but the Fw190 continually leading the way, despite being out performed. It was hardly outperformed for quite some time. It was never outperformed in roll rate though the P47C onwards and FW190A series were probably matched in this area. Ah yes, the generic attempts to try and inflate the time scale, the Fw190A was probably the best all round fighter in 1941, when it worked, and assuming you did not want things like carrier operations, long range escort or high altitude interceptions. It spent the 1942 to mid 1943 period in this best category, the Spitfire IX was the equivalent, the P-47 slightly "better", the P-51B and Spitfire XIV decidedly better by the end of the year, and the P-47 was improving. By the way the earlier P-51As were faster at low altitude than the Fw190s, so I guess they are the "superior" fighter in 1942. Meantime, since it is known the FW190 had an outstanding roll rate, we will announce how important that was, you know, if you can out roll your opponent you always win, and of course, ignore the way rolling rates varied with speed. So tell us all what speeds and stick forces are you talking about, with 50 pounds stick force and 250 mph the P-47C-1 rolled at 85 degrees per second, the P-47D-30, with 30 pounds stick force and 220 mph rolled at 60 degrees per second. By the way the P-40 managed around 130 degrees per second at 360 mph, on 50 pounds stick force, see how that compares to the FW190. As far as I can tell what is being thought of is an idealised view of the Fw190 which then becomes a benchmark with everyone else altering to fight it, but the Fw190 continually leading the way, despite being out performed. The P47B (of which only 170 were built an which never seemed to have seen service at all ) was a dramatically weaker aricraft in terms of roll rate and manouverability to the P47C/P47D which first flew an inconclusive combat in March 43 and entered service with Zemke in Jan 43. Thus there was ample time for RAF combate expereience to have been fed into the P47C program. It would be odd if there was not such a system in place at all. Yes folks, the flat "P-47 was designed" statement is now reduced to hey they might have, could have, should have sent data to the USA, well after the design had been finalised. Of course the P-47C was being delivered in August 1942, around 1 month after the British captured an FW190, but we know the US supermen only need that sort of time to redesign an aircraft and have it in production, of course the German supermen still produce better aircraft, and the rest of us fall around laughing. Presumably the introduction of paddle bladed propellers to the P-47 was a reaction to the outstanding rate of climb of the Fw190, particularly above 20,000 feet, correct? Both water injection and paddle bladed propellors with cooling cuffs were needed to improve low altitude perfomance where the P47 was initialy at a speed disadvantage. Yes folks, fitting a new propeller and water injection is a "design", meantime the Fw190 remained in its original configuration, no additional power or armament and so on, with the allies unable to match it apparently. The fact the FW190A series went through a series of improvements means by this absurd definition that the Fw190 was designed to take on the Spitfire, P-47, P-51, Tempest etc. as their performance was revealed to the Germans. As opposed to all types were modified to improve performance. P-47B. This was the first production model, and 171 were built. Deliveries started late in 1942, and some went into action in Europe on April 8, 1943. In combat, the P-47B-RE had inadequate climbing and maneuverability, but it had plenty of speed and firepower. It also had excellent diving capability, and its heavy structure could absorb terrific punishment. Its wingspan was 40 feet, 9 inches; area, 300 square feet; gross weight, 13,360 pounds; top speed, 429mph at 27,800 feet. The P-47 had been designed to operate well in the 20,000 feet plus area, all that effort to incorporate a supercharger, and so sacrificed climbing ability. The P47C and P47D made dramatic improvements over the B model that relate to an 13 inch extension to the engine position. I have seen references more than once that some P47 development preceded on the basis of besting the FW 190A (roll rate I believe). The 13 inch extension was credited with a major improvement in manoeuvrability and entered production for the P47C although some P47B airframes were modified with an 8 inch extension for maintenance reasons. Yes folks, note how the memories are all about what the FW190 is supposed to have done, no other design apparently had anything at all to do with P-47 improvements. The P-47B was 35 feet long, the C and D models 36 feet 1 inch. SNIP The Ju388L was in production for around 6 months in 1944, with around 10 converted from Ju188 and 60 built new. Those 600 engines must have had a very short lifetime if all they did was power the Ju388L. The night fighter version appears to be more prototypes than production. Not all aircraft entered service. All the sources i have seen credit it with a production run of 300. I note none of the "sources" are provided, only the claim of multiple sources, the Ju388L was not a high priority item in 1944, the need was for fighters, the jets could take over reconnaissance, production numbers were of the order of 60 to 70. Where are your sources? Translation, none of the "sources" are provided, you would have thought at he very least one could have been done so. Instead the only source provided says the original claim is wrong which is a new one, the only data posted shoots down the original claim. According to this source we are both wrong. I have no problems with the fact the 1945 German aircraft production figures are debatable, as are some of the 1944 figures. So I do not expect any source to be accurate to say the 10s, but the claim is hundreds of extra aircraft. http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero...unkers_388.htm Under the "Hubertus" program of 1944, plans called for production of 300-400 Ju-388s a month at seven different manufacturers. But only 176 were completed by the war's end, mostly at Allgemeine Transportanlagen Gesellschaft in the Leipzig suburb of Mockau Sigh, I suppose it is worthwhile pointing out the original claim was for 300 reconnaissance versions, this is now down to 176 of all versions, bomber and night fighter included. Does not change the point that even if there were 176 reconnaissance versions going though 600 engines is a major problem. The night fighter did not enter service as the BMW801T version was no faster than a standard Ju 88G7 with BMW801D at the altitudes British bombers could fly at. It was an iron in the fire should the B29 appear. The US could have deployed hundreds of B-29s in Europe in 1944, given what appeared in the Pacific. The JU388J prototype did not fly until early 1944 and needed a new type of pressure cabin given the radar being fitted. The Germans had considerable problems designing good pressure cabins, and work was slow. The J version was not an iron in the fire, more like the metal to make the axe to chop down the tree to build the fire to put the iron in. There were plenty of pressure cabine aircraft produced. They were simply reduced in number for economcy reasons. Yes folks, the reality is the Germans had continual problems with pressure cabin designs, but hey, let us just assume it was all economic reasons, not design problems plus requirements. Everyone had their moments with pressure cabins, hence the way they were a minority. The Me109G-5 was produced in large numbers but not as large numbers as its unpressurised version the Me 109G6. The TA 152 was ofcourse pressurised as was the Me 262. The TA152C versions were not pressurised. What exactly is large numbers for the G-5? Please give the reference for Me262 pressurisation. Presumably any problems ecountered during development of German aircraft is proof to you of the failure of the type. Thus if a prototype leaked air due to faulty sealing foam then that is all the proof you need? Yes folks, when in doubt try and rewrite history, go and take a look at the problems the Ju3988 pressure cabin had, given the need to fit radar. This delayed the program, hence the way it lagged the other two versions and never entered production. Finally the Ju 388 was not needed. Yes folks, the Ju388 goes from being the B-29 killer all ready to go to not needed, after the facts have been presented about the Ju388. After all it was going to be a stretch to have it in production in 1944 and the Ju388 versus the P-51 for example is not a good move. So switch to the standard wonder Luftwaffe aircraft, the Me262. There were no B29s in Europe. The Me 262B with radar would have dealt with it in anycase. The Jumo 004D with duplex injectors (overcoming high altitude thin air flameouts) were also entering production and this would have pushed the aircrafts opperational altitude well above the B29s service ceiling. Even without this it was capable of reaching the B29. Yes folks, just ignore the fact the USAAF deployed B-29s in bombing raids in June 1944 from India. Just announce the Me262 as equipped in May or June 1945 would have dealt with all those raids from June 1944 onwards. Just like they dealt with all those B-17 and B-24 raids. Oh yes, the equipment that never saw service was the answer. (snip) Fw190D information, The Ta152H-1 had an empty weight of around 8,900 pounds supported by a wing area of 251 square feet, The Spitfire XIV had an empty weight of around 6,600 pounds and wing area of 242 square feet. I doubt the TA152H with its long wings would win a turning contest with a Spitfire XIV except at very high altitudes. When comparing "empty weights", you have to be careful about what is included in the figures. Depending on the definition, weapons, radio gear and other operational equipment might be included or not. I'd only seriously compare empty weights if I have a complete weight break-down where every item is listed seperately. Unfortunately, for some types such data is hard to find. In other words rather than note it the Ta152H-1 had an empty weight around a ton lower than the Spitfire and indeed around the loaded weight of the Spitfire XIV you will announce that shock horror, the Spitfire could have weighed a little more empty. Anything but actually confront the problems with the "best turning" claim. What does empty mean? Does it include all radios, guns, dingies etc that can add up to hundreds of pounds? yes folks, apparently semantics rules, try and cope with the fact the Ta152 was heavier than the Spitfire, after all look at the loaded weight of one and the empty weight of the other. Then cope with the fact they had similar wing area. The long wings of the Ta 152H reduced the fantastic roll rate compared to the Fw 190A and Fw 190D. To put it mildly, given the inevitable effects of long wings and the need to watch wing loadings. Assuming that the wing loading of the TA 152H was higher than the Spit XIV (assuming Griffon 65 variant to allow the spit half a chance to match speed) then the higher aspect ratio wings of the TA152 might still be more efficient. Because of the higher aspect ratio they would be more efficient and probably have less induced drag so the aircraft would wash of less airspeed. Ah I see, the claim of always is now "might" no real information just a whole lot of I hopes. Find a test that proves that the Spit could out turn the Ta 152H. This is becoming hysterical, apparently there must be a test somewhere about turning abilities, presumably carefully matched by weight and altitude, but the claim is the Ta152H can out turn the Spitfire end of story, and when asked for proof the answer comes back, I have none, go disprove it. Thanks for such a wonderful example of how the claims are made up, not factual. Heard of Captain Eric Brown, "In so far as manoeuvrability was concerned the story was mutch the same, the Spitfire was certainly the better of the two below 30,000 feet, there being little to choose between British and German fighters between that altitude and 35,000 feet, but above the latter altitude the Ta152H-1 enjoyed a decided edge." You see the blanket claim about Ta152 having better turning ability is simply wrong, as expected at high altitude it had an edge but it was designed for such a thing. By the way just how much faster was the Ta152 after it had used it MW-50 and GM-1, say compared to the Spitfire HF IX? Or for that matter the Spitfire VII? GM-1 in particular was an excellent compensation for the lower octane fuels available to the Luftwaffe and MW-50 to an lessor extent. GM1 added a lot of weight but it was the only way to get around the octan lag the Germans suffered. Allies simply loaded up with 150 octane and found that the slight improvement that GM-1 would have offered with fuel this good was not worth the weightmof adding things such as GM1. There was some 10 minutes of GM-1 available as I recall. Yes folks, note how my question is not being answered, we have a wonderful technical description of the system but no mention of what happens if the system is out of fuel or not working. Captain Brown thinks the Ta152H-1 speed was 425 mph at 35,000 feet without the boosting. The HF Spitfire IX could do around 416 mph at 27,000 feet, the HF mark VII 424 mph at 29,400 feet. Both of these types were around in 1942. Finally when the RAF fitted a liquid oxygen supply to the HF VII engine they achieved around a 40 mph speed increase, only used in trials though. Turning circle is usually measured at sustained speed without loosing altitude. For instance a Spit might turn inside a Me 109F but the 109 pilot could pull G, use his automatic slats to warn him of incipient stall and bleed of speed faster to turn inside the spit anyway. Of course you don't get to play this trick indefinetly. I like this, please show all those Bf109 pilots that survived turning contests with a Spitfire. How many did so regularly. The Bf109 was easily out turned by the Spitfire, unless the Bf109 was moving much slower, end of story. The Spitfire had the further advantage of a much better signalled stall than either the Fw190 of Bf109. The Bf109 wing slats had a habit of deploying asymmetrically, which caused aiming problems and was a fun effect near the stall. I think that might be incorrect. A 109 might turn inside a Spitfire using this techniqe but he presumably had only 1 turn or less to do it since he would loose energy and speed and thus allow the spitfire to regain the upper hand. Ah yes, the "mights" have appeared, what was definite is now a might, by the way the Bf109E had a turning circle around 20% more than the Spitfire I. It seems we have a new concept of turning fight, bleed speed until near stall and hope you do not get shot, that way you can out turn your faster opponent, this of course being a 1 on 1 fight, without anyone else to indulge themselves against such slow targets. By the way the IJAAF Oscar fighters used this tactic with combat flaps to help the slow speed turn rate, presumably there was an interchange between the Luftwaffe and the IJAAF. Again show all the Luftwaffe pilots who were doing this. The preferred tactics were to fight in the vertical plane. The Me 109 might have had a shakey stall due to its slats but this also warning of incipient stall. Furthermore the spitfire had a nasty stall and could spin away. Funny about that, all the pilots reports are that the Bf109 and Fw190 stall performance was worse than that of the Spitfire, but hey, when in doubt make something up to say the opposite, presumably the Spitfire report is on the web somewhere and is therefore claimed true. The spits advantage was its big wing, made possible by high octane fuel restoring the power to weight ratio it would otherwise have losts with its small discplacement light weight Merlin engine. The wing had a habbit of twisting and increasing the washout angle thus warning the pilot. By the way the Spitfire I empty was around 4,341 pounds, take off 6,200 pounds. The Bf109E-3 empty weight was around 4,421 pounds, loaded weight around 5,532 pounds. The Spitfire had 242 square feet of wing area, the Bf109E-3 174 square feet. This is very funny, apparently if the Spitfire did not have 100 octane fuel it would have needed to have a smaller wing. What next, if not lighter parachutes then a smaller tail? In other words folks, just invent some sort of irrelevant point, the Spitfire must not be allowed to out turn the Bf109, so have the Spitfire at say 500 mph and the Bf109 near stall and use those figures. Oh yes, the Spitfire cannot do anything except continue the turn, despite what the German fighter does. **************** PS most links work. Pity you do not take the time to read them then. http://www.jg53.com/html/history/air...axis-bf109.htm I dispute your claim that the Spit could outturn a 109. The reason being, any test that showed the Spit could outturn a 109 was done at a constant speed (Minimum radius of turn without loss of height) . This is a flawed test because in combat the 109 pilot used the tactic of dumping speed rapidly and making a slower and sharper turn than the Spit was capable of. Remember the 109 had those leading edge slats? That's what they were for! The slats were automatic, the pilot did not have control over them, and I like the idea of pilots deliberately dumping speed in a fight. Stalling speed of Bf109G-6/U2 in "landing configuration" 99 mph, in clean condition with half fuel load and the engine throttled back 105 mph, the slats opened around 20 mph above the stall, so we are talking about those wonder slats opening at 130 mph, or WWI fighter speeds, I can just see many Bf109 pilots doing this. The Spitfire IX stall flaps and undercarriage up 84 mph, down 70 mph Spitfire V stall flaps and undercarriage up 71 mph, down 68 mph Spitfire XIV stall flaps and undercarriage up 87 mph, down 75 mph Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- The Spitfire had a lower wing loading than the Bf 109 and this would normally give the better turning circle. However the 109 had help with it's leading edge slats which gave a lower stalling speed, and thus was able to turn tighter than a simple comparison of wing areas might suggest ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- So in other words the fact the Bf109 had a significantly higher wing loading than the Spitfire could be partially negated by slats, of course this then becomes totally negated in dream land. Two very different appraisals of the turning circles of the Spitfire and Bf109 can be found in the books "Fighter" by Len Deighton and "The Most Dangerous Enemy" by Stephen Bungay. The former has a diagram showing the Bf109s turning circle to be inside that of the Spitfire (750 feet and 880 feet respectively) while the latter has a diagram showing the opposite (850 feet and 700 feet respectively). Crucially all the tests of mock combats between captured Bf109s and Spitfires always give the Spitfire the edge. So "Fighter" probably has the graph marked incorrectly. http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/spitcom.htm Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Though the Spitfire had a tighter turn radius, the advantage was more theoretical than real since the Messerschmitt's automatic wing slats warned the pilot of impending stalls, enabling average pilots to get the most out of the machine. We will ignore the Spitfire also had a well signalled stall by design, we will just pretend the Bf109 alone had this feature and then overclaim the warning. We will ignore the opening of the Bf109 slats caused aileron snatching for example. We will invent poor Spitfire stalling characteristics. http://people.history.ohio-state.edu...b/6252ls13.htm Quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- However the 109 had a distinct advantage in manoeuvrability and turning circle at low speeds. The design of the 109, with it's leading edge slats gave a lower stalling speed. Yes folks, presumably we are talking about something like the Bf109B versus a later Spitfire, I note yet again no attempt to qualify the models being discussed. And the actual results from combat evaluations are ignored in favour of an opinion on the web. http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/jazzitoria/aspit-2.htm MANOEUVRABILITY SPITFIRE TURNING DIAMETER = 1,760 feet. BF 109 TURNING DIAMETER = 1,500 ft. Speed, altitude, weights being used? Oh sorry that is right it is on the web and the preferred answer therefore it is right. We will just ignore the turning circle diagrams in the books previously mentioned, since they give figures of less than half the above, which means if the above figures are correct we are talking high speed, where the Bf109 had more aileron problems than the Spitfire, making them even less believable. A Spitfire pilot will tell you the Spit could turn inside the 109. A Messerschmitt pilot will tell you the 109 could turn inside the Spitfire! And reality will tell you the combats were rarely joined with both sides at the same speed and altitude, so tuning inside becomes possible for the slower flying types. The truth is that both designs were capable of turning circles that would cause the pilot to "black-out" as the blood drained from the head. The pilot who could force himself to the limits without losing consciousness would emerge the victor from a turning battle, and the Spitfire pilots had supreme faith in their machine. The British aeronautical press told them that the wings came off the 109 in a dive or in tight turns, untrue but based on some early wing failures in the 109`s predecessor the Bf108. My, how about that, slip in a British intelligence error, is it time to roll out the official Luftwaffe appreciations of the Spitfire in 1940? However the 109 had a distinct advantage in manoeuvrability and turning circle at low speeds. The design of the 109, with it's leading edge slats gave a lower stalling speed. The 109 was very forgiving if stalled, with no tendency for a stall to develop into an uncontrollable spin, something that the Spitfire was prone to. Thus a Messerschmitt pilot was more at home at low speeds than his British counterpart. Translation the facts will not interfere with the preferred conclusions. It seems the Spitfire I in take off weight condition stalled at around 73 mph, the Bf109E-4, weight unknown, at 75 mph. see for trials results, http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit1.html 3. The Spitfire then allowed the Me 109 to get on to his tail and attempted to shake him off this he found quite easy owing to the superior manoeuvrability of his aircraft, particularly in the looping plane and at low speeds between 100 and 140 mph. By executing a steep turn just above stalling speed, he ultimately got back into a position on the tail of the Me 109. 5. As for the 109G-2 vs the Mk IX just look at the performance graphs, the 109G-2 is faster than the MK IX right up to 23000 ft. The 109 also outclimbs the Spit below 10000 ft and they are roughly equal between 10000 ft and 18000 ft. Once again the Spit doesn't dominate until the higher altitudes. The above quote is not from the URL listed above. I have no problems that the Bf109, and Fw190 held performance advantages at times, depending on versions, altitude and so forth, I am not the one making the "always superior" claims. By the way what is stopping the Spitfire pulling G as well? 1 probably can't wash of speed as fast 2 It isn't as manouverable at low speed. Translation, such techniques can only be done by the favoured design. "Probably" is considered definite, followed by the unsupported opinion about low speed handling. Note this would refer to the Me 109F series. Ah yes, the Bf109F series, the lightest of all the wartime types, is used as the "typical" case, in service for around a year in the west. Which F series, the F-0 which had the Bf109E engine or the later F-4, the highest performer in the series? It makes a difference. (snip) Fw190 D model information. Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email. |
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On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:34:15 +1000, "Geoffrey Sinclair"
wrote: Meantime the standard P-47D was modified to take the bigger engine, with130 were built as P-47Ms, with minimal modifications, in the final quarter of 1944. So of course the XP-47J was not the prototype of the P-47M. I just love how our bull****ting chum here manages to hoist himself upon his own hakenkreuz. greg -- Es ist mein Teil - nein Mein Teil - nein Denn das ist mein Teil - nein Mein Teil - nein |
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