leading edge flaps

Formula One type open wheel cars cars don't have active aerodynamic
surfaces
anywhere, flaps, spoilers, whatever. They are fixed.

You mean formula one cars use fixed spoilers.

It has been well known for some time that mechanizing the fixed spoiler into
a spoiler flap produces several advantages.

snip of rattling and clanking

They are fixed in that the driver has no way to change a setting on the track
and they are not actively controlled either. If you watch an open wheeler race
you will see that one of the things the crews do when the cars come into the
pits is to adjust wing angles manually. So far as flaps go the rear wings
sometimes have a main wing and one or two smaller wings stacked on the trailing
edge of the main wing to smooth the airflow coming off.. The air behind the
cars is quite "dirty" and any smoothing translates into less drag. These wings
are often problemmatic because they are subject to flutter and failurel,
leaving debris on the track, so they aren't always used..

The devices are called wings because they are airfold that produce lift but in
a downward direction a counterforce to the lift from the main body of the car.
You may have seen at the 24 Hour race at LeMans France where a Mercedes went
airborne nearly 50 ft into the air, flipped a few times then landed flat on the
ground. They don't do anything relative to "spoiling lift" under the car and
there is nor rom to put spoilers there per se as they are just an inch or so
off the ground.

Some street cars like my Porsche use an air dam that is computer controlled and
raise to increase downforce on the rear about a certain speed, usually around
100 mph or so.

Apparently they need a electrical or mechanical egineeer and not an
aerodynamicist to design them.
Lots of opportunity. I'm surprized you haven't jumped on this opportuity, John,
and have become a consultant to the Ferrari or McLaren F1 teams. I suspect the
racing industry would benefit greatly from roll steering couples to their GPS
as well.

I suppose you have, indeed, made your "point" -- that you can spew BS in this
forum and get people to react to it.

I have also made my point -- that your claim is, as usual, totally incredible
and unsubstantiated. You make for good entertainment at times, but with such
a
low signal-to-noise ratio, are a lousy source of credible or usable
information.





You gotta admit it is highly entertaining though. I can hardly wait to read
the posts when I get on line. Good for many a chuckle and I usually share them
with some of my friends who are design and test engineers on several of the
major DoD weapon system programs. I suspect "splapp" and "Nyqist" will even
find their way into the "show and tell" briefings given to non-technical VIPs
just to dazzle them.

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
Formula One type open wheel cars cars don't have active aerodynamic
surfaces
anywhere, flaps, spoilers, whatever. They are fixed.

You mean formula one cars use fixed spoilers.

It has been well known for some time that mechanizing the fixed spoiler
into
a spoiler flap produces several advantages.

snip of rattling and clanking

They are fixed in that the driver has no way to change a setting on the
track
and they are not actively controlled either.

They can and have been actively controlled, by computers, in both aircraft
and autos.

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
You gotta admit it is highly entertaining though. I can hardly wait to
read
the posts when I get on line.

Dilbert's adiction.

They can and have been actively controlled, by computers, in both aircraft
and autos.

I agree but not in F1 or F! type cars as you said. Rules don't allow.

Dilbert's adiction.

I gotta remember that one.

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...

They can and have been actively controlled, by computers, in both
aircraft
and autos.

I agree but not in F1 or F! type cars as you said. Rules don't allow.

I wrote that there are Formula One type races for cars with computer
controlled spoiler flaps. Whatever else you may have surmised must have
come from the voices in your own head.

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 06:05:28 -0600, "John Carrier"
wrote:

If they extend when airpressure is reduced as airspeed slows, then it
would be redundant to add "also when a certain AOA is achieved"
because that is the inevitable, inexorable, undeniable result of
slowing.

Just musing here Ed; :-))))))

I might be missing something in what you're saying about slat extension Ed,
but FWIW, although it's true that dynamic pressure will bring out an
aerodynamic LE slat as airspeed is reduced and angle of attack is increased
as the result of that slowing, the only common denominator that SHOULD be
used for an aerodynamic slat extension parameter is aoa, not airspeed! You
can pull 12 units in an A4 and get a slat extension at ANY airspeed!! Using
airspeed as the single parameter seems to me to be like using airspeed as a
stall parameter instead of aoa. (Airspeed works for stall at a specific GW
for a 1g stall, but goes to hell when you start pulling g!! The alpha units
or degrees aoa for CLmax producing that stall however, remain the same. The
same thing goes for an aerodynamic slat extension. You can extend slats in
an A4 by reducing the airspeed all right, but ONLY when you reach 12 units
aoa which works for an airspeed explanation at 1g level flight decel.
BUT!!!! You can ALSO extend the same slats at much higher airspeeds by
accelerating the airplane to 12 units. The airspeed for each extension
scenario will be quite different, but the same 12 units still apply! AOA is
the right parameter for aerodynamic slat extension, and what's used in the
test community. I have to admit though, I can't for the life of me remember
however how the Natops for the A4 presented this information :-)))

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

Tarver Engineering wrote:

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...

They can and have been actively controlled, by computers, in both
aircraft and autos.

I agree but not in F1 or F! type cars as you said. Rules don't allow.

I wrote that there are Formula One type races for cars with computer
controlled spoiler flaps..

Nope. You specified "some formula one style racers".
*******
That's not the same as "Formula One type races" Tarver.
*****
Airflow appendages on F1 cars can not be adjusted during racing. Any
category allowing such adjustment would not be a F1 style racer.

Which of the following allow in-race adjustment -- F1, Champcars,
Indycars, F2000, F3000, F5000, F2, F3, F4, Barber Dodge Pro,
Formula Ford, Formula Renault, Europa Cup, Formula BMW, Formula Holden,
Formula Nippon, Formula Nissan, Formula Palmer Audi, Fran-Am 1600,
Formula Russell, Formula Vee, Star Mazda, Formula F Zetec etc.

They are open wheelers (but so is my neighbour's quad bike).

Which of the above are F1 "style" categories?

Is a F1 car a 'Star Mazda style racer'?

ronh



--
"People do not make decisions on facts, rather,
how they feel about the facts" Robert Consedine

From: "Tarver Engineering"
Date: 1/11/2004 12:02 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: "John R Weiss"
Date: 1/11/2004 12:15 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: cS5Mb.19776$Rc4.81757@attbi_s54

"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

Exactly where would I find a
reference to "a spoiler flap in a speedbrake configuration," and in
what
context?

Also, I just looked through 14CFR Part 121 -- including 121.343,
121.344,
and
Appendices B and M (the FAA standards for Flight Recorder and DFDR
operational
parameters) -- and found absolutely no reference to "spoiler flaps"
in
ANYconfiguration.

Or even "spoiler". Although, anyone familiar with aerodynamic surfaces
could use the full nomenclature for the fixed spoiler, or the spoiler
flap.

Nope.

14CFR Part 121 (as cited above) has references to "Ground spoiler" and
"spoilers" and "spoiler", but NONE to "fixed spoiler" or "spoiler flap".

The ONLY such "full nomenclature" yet discovered is in the Tarverisms.

We're still waiting for a credible citation...


It occurs to me that a "fixed spoiler" would be immobile and thus provide
nothing of value and should be removed.

Lots of autos have spoilers, as they push down on the rear for more rear
wheel loading. some formula one style racers have computer controlled
spoilers they call "spoiler flaps", so as to differentiate from a fixed
spoiler.

So, I used the complete name of a control surface and got trolled by a kook
757 FO. Here today we have Dan, parroting a kook.


You really need to pay attention to what is being discussed. We were discussing
aircraft, tarver, not "autos."

One of these days you may astound us by producing a reputable citation that
refers to the term "spoiler flaps" but I seriously doubt you ever will. Then
again someday you will explain how being an EE and a long ago jet mech makes
you an expert on all this aerospace, automotive, poli-sci etc.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired