pilots refuse to fly with gun loons onboard

Obviously the one without security is far more vulnerable.

This is not obvious to me. The one without security will have passengers who
carry almanacs, ball point pens, letherman tools packaged in transparant
neutronium, nail clippers, Swiss army knives, steak knives, pottery, tool kits
(including hammers and screwdrivers), odd shaped metal things nobody can
identify except for the price tag, and maybe even the odd firearm or two (with
bullets). Any terrorist who tries anything will have to face all that in the
hands of an angry mob. Given that terrorists haven't done well lately with
even unarmed passengers, I'd say they haven't a chance.

The one with security will have a bunch of unarmed passengers eating squeeze
food with plastic utensils, who are used to being told what to do and when to
do it, and expect somebody else to dispense security for them. The terrorist
of course will be fully armed, because he (or she) knows how to get stuff on an
airplane. Granted an unarmed angry mob is nothing to sneeze at, but if I were
the terrorist, this is still the plane I'd pick to be on.


However, you seem to be equating pax-with-guns with security, with no
evidence to back you up. Last week someone posted the "Archie Bunker
security plan" (give every pax a handgun) which made the same error...


You state it's an error, with no evidence to back you up.

I'm not advocating giving everyone a machine gun. But I am advocating letting
them keep their ballpoint pens, almanacs, Swiss Army knives, and leathermen.

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Teacherjh wrote:


The one with security will have a bunch of unarmed passengers eating
squeeze food with plastic utensils, who are used to being told what to do
and when to
do it, and expect somebody else to dispense security for them. The
terrorist of course will be fully armed, because he (or she) knows how to
get stuff on an
airplane. Granted an unarmed angry mob is nothing to sneeze at, but if I
were the terrorist, this is still the plane I'd pick to be on.

There's another relevant point. If we assume that security would prevent
boarding with weapons (not a safe assumption at all, but let's go with it
for the moment), then what's a terrorist to do? Why, just identify and
overpower the lone armed officer on the aircraft.

Even an armed officer can be overpowered if it's done quickly and from close
range (and perhaps involving multiple attackers).

Thus, by putting weapons aboard, we're providing another attack vector for
terrorists.

Keeping the officer's identity secret is an obvious attempt to address this.
In the computing business, we call this "security through obscurity". It
doesn't work against any but the most casual of attackers.

- Andrew

I'd prefer the flight w/o any guns. The trained law enforcement officers
frequently demonstrate less than decent aim when firing a weapon. Locally we
had a not to recent shooting., 42 LE rounds expended, perp was wounded and
taken to a hospital. Hate to think what would happen to the people sitting
in a line of sight along to either side of a hijacker. Hell even if the
hijacker had a gun the passengers could beat him to death before he could
get off enough rounds to do equivalent damage. Everyone assumes that the Air
Marshal won't miss!

--
Kevin McCue
KRYN
'47 Luscombe 8E
Rans S-17 (for sale)




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

"Kevin McCue" wrote in message
...

I'd prefer the flight w/o any guns.


Oh, I think we all would. But given that a terrorist may get a weapon
aboard, would you prefer that he be the only one aboard with a gun?

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:21:30 -0700, Kevin McCue wrote:

Everyone assumes that the Air
Marshal won't miss!

yeah. or the terrorist sitting in one of the seats at the end of the plane
and having about 400 people between him and the guy (in the event he is
sitting in the front of the plane (or vice versa)

M (mashall): Mr terrorist, drop your gun!
T (terrorist): drop yours or I'll shoot this *pointing* guy!
M: no way!
T: *bammm* - drop it now? or I shoot this *pointing again* kid here!
M: nooooo!
T: *bamm*

what do you think? will the marshals all be little Rambos without a heart?

#m

--
harsh regulations in North Korea (read below link after reading the story):
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/04/open-mikulan.php
oooops ... sorry ... it happened in the USA, ya know: the land of the free.

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...

yeah. or the terrorist sitting in one of the seats at the end of the plane
and having about 400 people between him and the guy (in the event he is
sitting in the front of the plane (or vice versa)

M (mashall): Mr terrorist, drop your gun!
T (terrorist): drop yours or I'll shoot this *pointing* guy!
M: no way!
T: *bammm* - drop it now? or I shoot this *pointing again* kid here!
M: nooooo!
T: *bamm*

what do you think? will the marshals all be little Rambos without a heart?


Right. It's far better that the marshal drop his gun so the terrorists can
then take control of the airplane and kill several hundred or several
thousand than to have a terrorist kill a passenger.

Is there not a single rational voice among the anti-gun crowd?

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:50:52 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

what do you think? will the marshals all be little Rambos without a heart?


Right. It's far better that the marshal drop his gun so the terrorists can


let's assume YOU are the marshall? what would _you_ do in *this* situation?
You are that cool? Yes? My respect.

then take control of the airplane and kill several hundred or several
thousand than to have a terrorist kill a passenger.

The risk of life ... as life itself is one of the riskiest things itself.
Every life ends with death.

About arming: Do you know when I saw the last weapon in real life? Tell you
what: I can't remember if it was in a shopping center about 1,5 years ago
in the US or at the airport when returning from the US (the security
personnel).

#m

--
harsh regulations in North Korea (read below link after reading the story):
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/04/open-mikulan.php
oooops ... sorry ... it happened in the USA, ya know: the land of the free.

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:24:41 GMT, Martin Hotze
wrote:


yeah. or the terrorist sitting in one of the seats at the end of the plane
and having about 400 people between him and the guy (in the event he is
sitting in the front of the plane (or vice versa)

M (mashall): Mr terrorist, drop your gun!
T (terrorist): drop yours or I'll shoot this *pointing* guy!
M: no way!
T: *bammm* - drop it now? or I shoot this *pointing again* kid here!
M: nooooo!
T: *bamm*

what do you think? will the marshals all be little Rambos without a heart?

#m

Where are the marshalls? Do you even know if one's one the flight?
Assume there's a pair of them. They're likely to be able to cover each
other.
So, what do you do? Draw your weapon? Marshall pulls his and fires
at you. Assuming the passengers don't swarm the terrorist to prevent
another 9/11.


Eric Pinnell

(Author, "Claws of The Dragon", "The Omega File")

For a preview, see: http://www.ericpinnell.com and click on "books"

"Eric Pinnell" see my web site wrote in message
...
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:24:41 GMT, Martin Hotze
wrote:


yeah. or the terrorist sitting in one of the seats at the end of the
plane
and having about 400 people between him and the guy (in the event he is
sitting in the front of the plane (or vice versa)

M (mashall): Mr terrorist, drop your gun!
T (terrorist): drop yours or I'll shoot this *pointing* guy!
M: no way!
T: *bammm* - drop it now? or I shoot this *pointing again* kid here!
M: nooooo!
T: *bamm*

what do you think? will the marshals all be little Rambos without a
heart?

#m

Where are the marshalls? Do you even know if one's one the flight?
Assume there's a pair of them. They're likely to be able to cover each
other.
So, what do you do? Draw your weapon? Marshall pulls his and fires
at you. Assuming the passengers don't swarm the terrorist to prevent
another 9/11.


What's to say that the passengers don't swarm over the marshal when they see
his gun.

What's to say a terrorist doesn't claim to be a marshal when he pulls his
weapon. Are all marshals going to be white?

Sorry but the who idea is fu*king stupid dreamed up by a whole load of
as*hole rednecks who have brains no bigger than pin heads and still have
their minds stuck in the pioneer days.

Dave

"Dave" wrote in message
...

What's to say that the passengers don't swarm over the marshal when they
see
his gun.


If they were of a mind to do that, wouldn't they swarm over the first person
to draw a weapon, which would be the terrorist?



What's to say a terrorist doesn't claim to be a marshal when he pulls his
weapon. Are all marshals going to be white?


Well, if he doesn't shoot the terrorist upon pulling his weapon, it woulb be
pretty clear he's not actually a marshal.



Sorry but the who idea is fu*king stupid dreamed up by a whole load of
as*hole rednecks who have brains no bigger than pin heads and still have
their minds stuck in the pioneer days.


Actually, it's those that oppose armed marshals that are brainless.