A very basic question

Dudely.. he said turning by banking only.. he said nothing of "inside
rudder"
at least not the way I read it

BT

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:K97jd.86842$bk1.136@fed1read05...
As to the aileron, think of the relative wind on the wings.
With an aileron dropped (looking like a flap), there will be increased
drag.
Of course the other one goes up, but I don't think the resultant force
is equal on both wings.
Thus, yaw results.

Brian, are you stating that this yaw causes the turn?, actually this is
adverse yaw and resists the turn.

Come, lets step into my flying laboratory, the Grob 103, and we'll
explore that interesting concept called adverse yaw.

BT
Inside rudder will most definitely produce bank which will produce turn
exactly as Brian said it would. There is a difference between adverse and
complimentary yaw. Actually, there will be no adverse yaw if inside rudder
alone is used to induce complimentary yaw. Only aileron application into a
bank with no inside rudder will produce adverse yaw.
If complimentary yaw (inside rudder) is used with no aileron, the speed
difference between the retreating inside wing and the forward moving
outside wing will cause bank, which will be a direct secondary result of
the complimentary yaw being produced.
In other words, insider rudder will most definitely produce bank as a
secondary effect and as such will produce turn...assuming no anti turn
control input is present.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
for email; take out the trash

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:Lphjd.90058$bk1.21776@fed1read05...
Dudely.. he said turning by banking only.. he said nothing of "inside
rudder"
at least not the way I read it

BT

I admit the question is a little vague to say the least. I think I might
have got caught up in that "turn"(yaw) thing and read it to mean
complimentary yaw producing turn as a secondary effect.
I read it as asking several things that were not exactly correct in
premise to begin with!

For example;
"Unlike the elevators and rudder that change an aircraft's pitch and
yaw with no other secondary effect,"

I have a bit of a problem with this premise before even getting into the
"question"
:-)
Then we have this;
"why does the banking of wings by
the use of ailerons not just roll an aircraft but also produces a turn
(yaw)? "

I read his context as aileron being used and producing turn which in the
turn (inside context) would be complimentary yaw.....which of course
wouldn't be the secondary effect of using aileron to begin
with.........are you following this........cause I'm getting lost!!!
:-)))
The parenthesis (yaw) opens up a whole deck of cards since banking the
airplane with just aileron would produce adverse yaw; not complimentary
yaw, and it will also as a secondary effect after adverse yaw had
stabilized, produce turn if not held back with anti turn controls. It's
puzzling the way he worded it really.
I'm not sure really what he was asking at this point!! :-)

Anyway, the answer for uncoordinated turn entry using various isolated
control inputs would be if aileron alone....adverse yaw followed by turn
after stabilization and vector split;
and inside rudder alone; turn as bank is introduced as the secondary and
the lift vector splits.
You are completely right of course about dihedral effect!
Anyway....I think I'll leave this for you guys to play with. I'm going
to bed!!
:-)
Have a good one,
Dudley

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 05:09:36 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

"why does the banking of wings by
the use of ailerons not just roll an aircraft but also produces a turn

He wants to know why his pilot can't simply do rolls around the
plane's longitudinal axis.

Perhaps it would help to know what inputs are necessary to make such a
roll? If you are rolling to your left, do you apply right rudder?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 06:13:43 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:

He wants to know why his pilot can't simply do rolls around the
plane's longitudinal axis.

Perhaps it would help to know what inputs are necessary to make such a
roll? If you are rolling to your left, do you apply right rudder?

It depends on the aircraft you're flying. I imagine jets
require very little "top rudder" to do an axial roll. Some
of the hot aerobatic planes scarcely allow time for
rudder input, I imagine.

Here's the sequence I learned for a slow, axial roll:

Input aileron. Hold it through the maneuver for a
steady roll rate.

Input "top rudder" as the plane reaches knife-edge.
If rolling to the left, right rudder will be on top first.

Back to neutral on rudder as the plane goes
inverted. Push on the stick to maintain level
flight upside-down.

Release the pressure on the elevator.

Input top rudder as the plane reaches knife-edge.
In the example of rolling to the left, this will now
be left rudder.

Release the pressure on the rudder as the
plane rolls upright.

Apply any necessary backpressure to maintain
level flight.

This is so much easier to do than it is to explain
in writing.

To do a rolling circle, add in appropriate inputs
toward the center of the circle as needed. To
do the rolls in a straight line, be careful to get
the inputs in at the right time.

Marty

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 05:09:36 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

"why does the banking of wings by
the use of ailerons not just roll an aircraft but also produces a turn

He wants to know why his pilot can't simply do rolls around the
plane's longitudinal axis.

Perhaps it would help to know what inputs are necessary to make such a
roll? If you are rolling to your left, do you apply right rudder?

A slow roll is extremely difficult to visualize with verbal
interpretation only.
The best way to describe what you are asking..say a slow roll to the
left is to first understand that a slow roll isn't exactly a roll dead
on the longitudinal axis as the axis relates to a "level" roll. The
visualization of a slow roll to the left can be made by envisioning a
reverse capital letter D, which naturally isn't in my little bag of
computer symbols, so a roll to the right is much easier to visualize. So
to the right, you can envision a capital letter D.
The reason for the D shape is because to do the roll properly, you will
have to pass through exact inverted at the airplane's level flight
inverted attitude to keep altitude in check during the roll. The
tightness of the D shape will depend on the wing design of the airplane
you're flying. A symmetrical wing on a Pitts, or an Extra for example
will be a much tighter D than say a Citabria with a high lift cambered
wing.
Anyway, the vertical line of the D represents the raising of the nose
during the first half of the roll until right past the full inverted
position. At that point, the nose must again be lowered to a normal
level flight attitude, and this is represented by the curve on the D
returning the airplane back to upright level flight attitude.
The roll can be done with inside rudder at roll initiation or without
insider rudder. When flying airshow demonstrations, I seldom used inside
rudder with inside aileron when initiating a slow roll. Reason for this
is that adverse yaw will pull the nose outside, which if caught exactly
right, will result in your going straight to the required top rudder you
need to carry you through knife edge at the right spot on the roll axis,
and if it's a point roll, you don't have to change feet at the first
point, but to do this requires a fairly fast roll rate, so it's aircraft
specific. In the P51 for example, the roll rate isn't fast enough to use
the adverse yaw generated so that it negates the normal inside rudder
you need to counter that adverse yaw, which in turn means you enter with
aileron and insider rudder, and immediately go to top rudder as soon as
a positive coordinated roll entry has been accomplished.
Back to the Pitts, entering into the first knife edge, you have steady
inside aileron and have blended in enough positive pitch with elevator
to climb the vertical D line nose high for the inverted level
transition.You hold top rudder through knife edge and then start
blending in whatever forward stick you need to pint the nose at level
inverted. You're also blending off the top rudder at this point at a
rate that will neutralize it passing through inverted. Stick at this
point is forward and in the corner for aileron and elevator blending.
Passing through inverted, you switch to opposite side top rudder and
reverse the procedure, blending in past the second knife edge, as you
come back down the backside of the D curve whatever back pressure you
need to return the nose to normal level flight attitude.
What I've just described is much better learned in actual flight, where
a slow roll can be done by rote, then understood
afterwards...........and in far less words to boot :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
for email; take out the trash

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 05:09:36 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

"why does the banking of wings by
the use of ailerons not just roll an aircraft but also produces a
turn

He wants to know why his pilot can't simply do rolls around the
plane's longitudinal axis.

Perhaps it would help to know what inputs are necessary to make such
a
roll? If you are rolling to your left, do you apply right rudder?

A slow roll is extremely difficult to visualize with verbal
interpretation only.
The best way to describe what you are asking..say a slow roll to the
left is to first understand that a slow roll isn't exactly a roll dead
on the longitudinal axis as the axis relates to a "level" roll. The
visualization of a slow roll to the left can be made by envisioning a
reverse capital letter D, which naturally isn't in my little bag of
computer symbols, so a roll to the right is much easier to visualize.
So to the right, you can envision a capital letter D.
The reason for the D shape is because to do the roll properly, you
will have to pass through exact inverted at the airplane's level
flight inverted attitude to keep altitude in check during the roll.
The tightness of the D shape will depend on the wing design of the
airplane you're flying. A symmetrical wing on a Pitts, or an Extra for
example will be a much tighter D than say a Citabria with a high lift
cambered wing.
Anyway, the vertical line of the D represents the raising of the nose
during the first half of the roll until right past the full inverted
position. At that point, the nose must again be lowered to a normal
level flight attitude, and this is represented by the curve on the D
returning the airplane back to upright level flight attitude.
The roll can be done with inside rudder at roll initiation or without
inside rudder. When flying airshow demonstrations, I seldom used
inside rudder with inside aileron when initiating a slow roll. Reason
for this is that adverse yaw will pull the nose outside, which if
caught exactly right, will result in your going straight to the
required top rudder you need to carry you through knife edge at the
right spot on the roll axis, and if it's a point roll, you don't have
to change feet at the first point, but to do this requires a fairly
fast roll rate, so it's aircraft specific. In the P51 for example, the
roll rate isn't fast enough to use the adverse yaw generated so that
it negates the normal inside rudder you need to counter that adverse
yaw, which in turn means you enter with aileron and inside rudder, and
immediately go to top rudder as soon as a positive coordinated roll
entry has been accomplished.
Back to the Pitts, entering into the first knife edge, you have steady
inside aileron and have blended in enough positive pitch with elevator
to climb the vertical D line nose high for the inverted level
transition.You hold top rudder through knife edge and then start
blending in whatever forward stick you need to pin the nose at level
inverted. You're also blending off the top rudder at this point at a
rate that will neutralize it passing through inverted. Stick at this
point is forward and in the corner for aileron and elevator blending.
Passing through inverted, you switch to opposite side top rudder and
reverse the procedure, blending in past the second knife edge, as you
come back down the backside of the D curve whatever back pressure you
need to return the nose to normal level flight attitude.
What I've just described is much better learned in actual flight,
where a slow roll can be done by rote, then understood
afterwards...........and in far less words to boot :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
for email; take out the trash