Iced up Cirrus crashes

This sounds like a troll post, but I will respond...

No, I wouldn't. I am a reasonably low time, 215 hour-ish (f/w)
instrument rated PP, and I find the SR20 to be a pretty easy airplane to
fly, given my limited experience with sub-200hp airplanes. Having just
done an hour in a high performance Mooney 231 yesterday (with no
previous logged high-perf time), I can opine that a "simplistic"
airplane such as the SR20 is a LOT easier to manage than the 231, which
is at least roughly comparable performance-wise to the V-Bonanza that
got the reputation you mention.

IMO (as others have said) the Cirrus is getting more negative press than
it deserves due to its "different-ness" as compared to more traditional
light airplanes. It was certificated under different rules than the 2oth
century Cessnas/Pipers/etc. and it will take some time for folks to come
around to this new way of thinking about what's safe.

The bottom line is - if I was going to buy an airplane, I'd look much
more enthusiastically at mid-timed Cirri than equivalent late-model
Cessnas (Pipers are not even on my scope due to the single door).

However, my pennies are being saved for something with a rotor 8^) .

Dave Blevins

On 11 Feb 2005 19:02:49 -0800, "Steve.T" wrote:

Would you say they (Cirrus) have become the new "doctor/lawyer killer"?

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

In article ,
wrote:

However, my pennies are being saved for something with a rotor 8^) .

I have logged half an hour of 'copter time, and frankly they scare the
pants off me. (It was a sight to see, let me tell you.) My
understanding is that:

1. If you take your hand off the stick, you die.

2. If you within some (fairly large) envelope of unsafe combinations of
altitude and airspeed and your engine fails, you die.

3. If the engine fails and you don't notice within some small number of
seconds, you die, even if you were in the "safe" range of altitude and
airspeed to begin with.

Is that correct? A copter pilot friend of mine told me this years ago,
but it occurred to me that he may have been exaggerating to make himself
look studly. So I thought I'd do a little reality check here. Any
'copter pilots here that can set me straight?

rg

If the engine fails and you don't notice within some small number of
seconds, you die

If the engine fails and you don't notice, you are already dead.

Jose

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:10:01 -0800, Ron Garret
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

However, my pennies are being saved for something with a rotor 8^) .

I have logged half an hour of 'copter time, and frankly they scare the
pants off me.

Sorry to hear that. My first ride back in '83 was a total blast, and
it's why I started to take lessons back then. Unfortunately budget and
life got in the way, and it took me until 2001 to get the private pilot
ticket. I'm hoping to get my commercial rating in the next year or so
(although I've been saying that for a while now).


(It was a sight to see, let me tell you.) My
understanding is that:

1. If you take your hand off the stick, you die.

Helicopters, unlike most fixed wing aircraft, are inherently unstable.
So yes, if you let the cyclic go in any light helicopter, you'll
probably get upside down in short order.

The key thing here is not to let go of the cyclic 8^) . It's not really
a problem, other than at engine start when you should kinda cradle the
cyclic between your knees as you crank the engine (at least in the small
helos I've flown). And, properly trimmed (assuming the helicopter you're
flying has pitch and roll electric trim), you could fly hands off for a
little while.

2. If you within some (fairly large) envelope of unsafe combinations of
altitude and airspeed and your engine fails, you die.

It's called the height-velocity diagram, and we are trained to stay out
of it as much as possible. Some operations, typically ones that only a
helicopter can do (and also not things that you'd do as a private pilot)
put the pilot into one of the hatched (bad) areas of the H-V diagram at
times. The idea is to minimize that time. I have about 130 hours in
fling-wingers and I probably have five minutes at most in the hatched
area (i.e. maximum performance liftoffs over the theoretical 50'
obstacle).

3. If the engine fails and you don't notice within some small number of
seconds, you die, even if you were in the "safe" range of altitude and
airspeed to begin with.

First of all, you will notice an engine failure pretty quickly. If it's
sudden (rather than a gradual loss of power), you're going to get a
large amount of yaw. Very noticeable, and correctable with appropriate
pedal input.

In terms of the number of seconds that you have to respond, it depends
on the model of helicopter. The Bell 47 is notorious for having gobs of
rotor inertia, meaning that entering autorotation can be a reasonably
relaxed procedure. On the other end of the spectrum, the Robinson R22
(especially with the older blade type) has a very light rotor system, so
you do have to be quick to get the collective down.

Generally speaking, helicopter pilots are more nervous 8^) but just
because the engine quits doesn't mean you're going to die - not by a
long shot. It pays to always have a landing spot picked out - not that
difficult if you maintain a sufficient AGL altitude and try not to fly
over unfavorable (mountainous/hilly/water) terrain more than necessary.

Is that correct? A copter pilot friend of mine told me this years ago,
but it occurred to me that he may have been exaggerating to make himself
look studly. So I thought I'd do a little reality check here. Any
'copter pilots here that can set me straight?

It seems to me that you're looking at helicopter flying with the "glass
half empty" attitude, rather than "half full". I am fixed-wing rated
too, and that's a lot of fun, but there is nothing better than being the
Master and Commander of a helicopter (other than certain adult sports of
course). A well trained, safety-conscious helicopter pilot will probably
live to a ripe old age when he can't see or think well enough to drive
the thing around anymore 8^) .

Part of life is about risk management. I am mighty afeart of dying, but
I'll do almost anything to get some helo stick time (even pay for it).
Frankly, I worry more about a mid-air collision in an airplane (I live
in a very busy airspace - San Jose, CA) than about dying in a helicopter
due to one of the things you mentioned.

Dave Blevins

Actually, I'm not a troll.

You did catch my point, partly. One of the things that happens when you
have strong willed people who do not want to know all the details, they
just want things done, when the details have to be handled, there is no
one to delegate to.

So when these "hi-powered" people got into a fast a/c, they learned
enough to get sign-offs (if they were even required at that time), and
then went out and bent metal.

My thinking is, are we seeing a new version of this kind of behavior? A
very capable machine, in un-experienced hands, with a gotta-get-there
mindset, parachute will save the day...

I'm starting to see why my insurance company has changed the way it
thinks. 2 years ago I could get insurance for a C-210 if I got 10 hours
in type (just over 200 TT then). Now, they want much much more ($$$ and
time) - and I have over 330, and complex time (working on commercial).

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument