Puchaz Spinning thread that might be of interest in light of the recent accident.

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:30:13 UTC, (Edward
Downham) wrote:
: The point I am making is that if you make a low, slow, under-banked and
: over-ruddered final turn, no amount of 'spin training' is going to protect
you
: from what is going to happen next.

Indeed. But spin training may have given you the idea that something
nasty might happen in those circumstances. As it is, I remain very
worried indeed by the training regime in many, many clubs which says
"Today we will spin. We will use a special glider, or we will add
unusual bits to the glider you normally fly". The result is an
overwhelming impression that it can't happen to me....

I agree with you about the 'specialised spin training' and the possibility it
might end up as a 'detached' exercise. As an aside, many years ago we modified
a K-21 at LGC to take spinning weights. I remember going up on one of the first
sorties (as a young P2). It was horribly unpredictable, even though we had
weighed ourselves and worked out the CofG quite carefully. I don't recall many
other spinning sessions being undertaken (in that glider) after that.

: You do not need a snappy spinning/stalling glider to instill these most
basic
: airmanship/handling skills into a student. Any aircraft will do.

I don't agree. You (one) can give all the lectures one likes, but if
the training glider doesn't do it, the pupil will not believe it.

I think we may be arguing at slightly cross purposes. I would question the
assumption that the pupil 'will not believe it'; 'it' being a loss of control
near the ground. (You may be thinking of a more marked stall/wing drop/spin
when demonstrating high AoA flight, in which case I apologise). Some things
just have to be understood, and more importantly, put into practice. There are
regimes of flight which are difficult to reproduce with fidelity (because you
don't want to be there _for real_). OK so you can simulate a crappy final turn
at altitude but you don't get a) the compelling visual cues that made you cock
it up in the first place b) the ground rush when it all goes wrong and c) the
effects of wind shear/gradient that occur at low level. I am not able to
propose a better solution to this problem, apart from restating that the focus
in training must be to _avoid_ this situation at all costs.

If you fly (one flies) with someone who starts to demonstrate undesirable
traits low down (decaying airspeed and/or coordination mixed in with a loss of
awareness of the glider performance), is it not time for immediate prompting or
takeover of control? In this case it matters little about the _actual_
characteristics of the glider: you are teaching the art of safe flying and
trying to build mental reflexes which will allow the pilot to survive in the
future, and I do mean _survive_. This is one area where you could say "You'll
do it and you'll do it _until you get it right_".
IMHO this is _the_ most important thing you can ever teach anybody in an
aeroplane: as your workload increases and your little world becomes smaller and
smaller your primary task is to remain _in control_ (fly the glider).

: I don't remember advocating 'non-stalling' trainers, simply that too much
: effort is going into an exercise which has a dubious risk/reward ratio. For
: many years we had no sailplanes at LGC which could be spun and there
:was no such training. What we _did_ do was concentrate on the 'old
:chestnuts' like:
: "Never low AND slow" and properly planned and controlled approaches.

Did it work?

Ian

The short answer is I don't know. I was trained at LGC during this period
(luckily by some very good, patient instructors) and did not go on to have any
high or low level stall/spin problems, or even develop a reluctance to practice
them on my own. I don't remember lots of gliders spiralling out of the sky but
again there _were_ accidents during that time, so I suspect any data is lost in
the surrounding noise.

To get back to my original point in my first post, I see no reason in having a
everyday training glider in a club environment with such easily (and
unintentionally) demonstrable spinning characteristics. Yes, if you want to go
spinning go and do it - it all adds to your experience.

My real fear (as I have pointed out in some private emails) is that clubs who
buy a glider such as the Puchacz do it for mainly financial reasons. Because
money is still tight they end up doing trial lessons, first solos, mutual
flying and the like. I agree that in skilled hands that should make no
difference but back in the real world not everybody is proficient to that
level. A messed up cable break in one of the German glass 2-seaters might end
in an accident needing workshop attention but not a hospital/undertaker. In a
Puchacz...?

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:15:34 UTC, (Edward
Downham) wrote:

: I agree with you about the 'specialised spin training' and the possibility it
: might end up as a 'detached' exercise. ...
: I think we may be arguing at slightly cross purposes.

I think maybe we are - lots of agreement, anyway!

: I would question the
: assumption that the pupil 'will not believe it'; 'it' being a loss of control
: near the ground.

I think the pupil ends up simply not believing that a spin will
happend at any time, because during training it so obviously - in the
average K21-equipped club - had to be very carefully and unusually
prepared for. I'm not in favour of pupils practicing spins in the
circuit!

: Some things
: just have to be understood, and more importantly, put into practice.

My introduction to spinning was in my fairly early days at Portmoak.
Said Bob: "You are flying too slowly and over-ruddering your turns. If
you do that a bit more, you will scare yourself ****less - if you're
lucky. I have control." With that he flew the Bocian out over the loch
- at about 2,500 feet, did coupleof clearing turns and flew too slowly
while overruddering the turn. And scared me ****less.

If he'd said "I'll show you what will happen when we next get the
chance to fly a different glider" or, worse "I'll tell you what will
happen" then I just wouldn't have believed him at that deep physical
oh-****-I-don't-want-to-die self preservation level.

: If you fly (one flies) with someone who starts to demonstrate undesirable
: traits low down (decaying airspeed and/or coordination mixed in with a loss of
: awareness of the glider performance), is it not time for immediate prompting or
: takeover of control?

Absolutely (caveat: I'm not a gliding instructor). But I think it's
essential to explain why these traits are so undesirable. It's a
different thing from just flying with the string all over the place:
hat just gets you down a bit sooner...

: To get back to my original point in my first post, I see no reason in having a
: everyday training glider in a club environment with such easily (and
: unintentionally) demonstrable spinning characteristics.

I think that's where we diverge. I think all training gliders should
spin like single seat gliders. I reckon the fact that they don't must
be considered as a prime candidate for the reason that so many pilots
continue to die in spins. They just don't think it'll happen to them.

: A messed up cable break in one of the German glass 2-seaters might end
: in an accident needing workshop attention but not a hospital/undertaker. In a
: Puchacz...?

If the instructor's any good ...

Ian

--

I'm also no instructor, but a personal experience converted me to spin
training.

As a low time solo pilot I went and joined a club a long way from home,
but in a very scenic part of the country. It's a very pleasant place to
spend a weekend and I was keen to get let loose in one of the club planes.

The CFI has a display licence and a penchant for aerobatics. He is also
an exceptionally good instructor. We went up on a check flight after
flying a few times with the other instructors. After a couple of minutes
of scratching in very weak thermals I decided it was not working and set
up for a nice safe circuit. High Key point at 1000" AGL and all very
propper in the K13.

Said hoary instructor then says, there's a bird circling, lets see if we
can join it, it is only just off the chosen circuit, a little over the
dam, so I enter a nice slow turn under the bird. (Starting to be
predictable isn't it) At this point, at 900" the CFI waits till I look
up at the bird (and get the yaw string out) and feeds in a tiny bit of
into turn rudder. I only had time to wonder whether it was a gust or him
moving in his seat before there was a momentary burble from the wingroot
and the canopy was full of ground and dam...

Having been trained in spin avoidance and recovery, I straightened it up
and got us back into the circuit , somewhat lower and more shaken than
stirred.

I'd learned to fly on Bergfalkes which have a particularly ineffectual
rudder, so was overdoing it in the K13, and had not appreciated quite
how close I had come before. Said CFI and I had a quiet discussion about
the flight, and then I got sent up solo in the K13, a lot safer than I
had been.

Lessons for me:
Even docile old ladies can be grumpy and won't always give you enough
warning to take corrective measures. Particularly in an unfamiliar
aircraft and or situation - you may miss or misinterpret the early
warnings.
Don't make assumptions - What felt normal for the Bergie, was pre-stall
buffet in the K13.
Most importantly - spin entry can be quite unobtrusive, just like in my
single seater trying to core that bumpy little thermal...

These days I tend to carry a little more speed, and I never assume I'm
competent to avoid a spin.