Hold "as published"?

"K. Ari Krupnikov" wrote in message
...

While it doesn't make a bit of a difference from 150 miles out, if you
reach the clearance limit and have no communication with ATC, and
reach it before your ETA, where are you going to hold? Over one of the
runway thresholds?


I assume the conditions are IMC. I'm not going to hold anywhere. I'm going
to say to myself, "I have an in-flight emergency requiring immediate
action," and then fly the most advantageous approach and land.

Hi Steven,

While it doesn't make a bit of a difference from 150 miles out, if you
reach the clearance limit and have no communication with ATC, and
reach it before your ETA, where are you going to hold? Over one of the
runway thresholds?

I assume the conditions are IMC. I'm not going to hold anywhere. I'm
going
to say to myself, "I have an in-flight emergency requiring immediate
action," and then fly the most advantageous approach and land.

I wouldn't like to be on your aeroplane if you're not going to hold anywhere
if you're 30 minutes early arriving at your destination with lost comms
etc... :-)

If you are in IMC and loose communication then one should start any
available instrument approach into the destination airport at the ETA within
the filed flight plan (ETD + Time Enroute). If you're early and its solid
IMC you hold. Simple as that.

The reason for this is Air Traffic is expecting you to arrive at the airport
at that ETA so they will have cleared the airspace in its entirity,
expecting you to start any published instrument approach into the airport.
This is particularly relevant if your transponder has also failed... how
are Air Traffic supposed to know where you are?

If you arrive, lets say 30 minutes ahead of schedule, you have no comms and
as its your very unlucky day your transponder has decided to go
unservicable. ATC have no idea where you are but as they will be following
the FARs they'll be clearing the area for your planned ETA. If you are now
30 minutes ahead of schedule (great tailwind) then they may still be
clearing the approaches... if you then start an ILS approach in solid IMC,
there could be a possibility of ploughing straight into another aircraft
that they are getting onto the ground in anticipation of your arrival 30
minutes later...

Of course if you are in VMC conditions then you'd stay in VMC and land as
soon as practicable. After landing informing Air Traffic by telephone so
they aren't any more incovenienced than they need to be.

Just my two pennies worth (I'm a Brit' so pennies instead of cents!).

Best wishes,

Richard Thomas
FAA CP-ASEL IA

Richard Thomas wrote:



The reason for this is Air Traffic is expecting you to arrive at the airport
at that ETA so they will have cleared the airspace in its entirity,

Not in its entirety, but we will make room for you.


expecting you to start any published instrument approach into the airport.
This is particularly relevant if your transponder has also failed... how
are Air Traffic supposed to know where you are?

Radar.

Of course if you are in VMC conditions then you'd stay in VMC and land as
soon as practicable. After landing informing Air Traffic by telephone so
they aren't any more incovenienced than they need to be.

Call me when you figure out you are NORDO and we can dispense with all
this mumbo jumbo.

"Richard Thomas" wrote:
If you are now
30 minutes ahead of schedule (great tailwind) then they may still be
clearing the approaches... if you then start an ILS approach in solid IMC,
there could be a possibility of ploughing straight into another aircraft
that they are getting onto the ground in anticipation of your arrival 30
minutes later...

How does holding at the Final Approach Fix for 30 minutes make the
situation any better?

"Richard Thomas" wrote in message
...

Hi Steven,


Howzit goin'?



I wouldn't like to be on your aeroplane if you're not going to hold
anywhere
if you're 30 minutes early arriving at your destination with lost comms
etc... :-)


Why not?



If you are in IMC and loose communication then one should start any
available instrument approach into the destination airport at the ETA
within
the filed flight plan (ETD + Time Enroute). If you're early and its solid
IMC you hold. Simple as that.

The reason for this is Air Traffic is expecting you to arrive at the
airport
at that ETA so they will have cleared the airspace in its entirity,
expecting you to start any published instrument approach into the airport.
This is particularly relevant if your transponder has also failed... how
are Air Traffic supposed to know where you are?


I see a couple of problems with that. First, it's unlikely ATC has your
ETA. They'd only have it if you were cleared as filed and there had been no
route amendments since you departed. That's rarely the case.

Second, what bizarre failure causes me to lose both of my completely
independent transceivers, and my transponder, but leaves me fully confident
of the continued flawless operation of my other avionics?



If you arrive, lets say 30 minutes ahead of schedule, you have no comms
and
as its your very unlucky day your transponder has decided to go
unservicable. ATC have no idea where you are but as they will be
following
the FARs they'll be clearing the area for your planned ETA. If you are
now
30 minutes ahead of schedule (great tailwind) then they may still be
clearing the approaches... if you then start an ILS approach in solid
IMC,
there could be a possibility of ploughing straight into another aircraft
that they are getting onto the ground in anticipation of your arrival 30
minutes later...


So if I arrive 30 minutes early I should hold while arrival and departure
traffic fly through my holding pattern?

I'm familiar with what the FARs and the AIM say. What I say comes from 20
years experience as an air traffic controller, Center, TRACON, and tower.
You can believe what I tell you, or you can believe your fantasies, I don't
care which.

"Steven P. McNicoll" writes:

Second, what bizarre failure causes me to lose both of my completely
independent transceivers, and my transponder, but leaves me fully confident
of the continued flawless operation of my other avionics?

My 196 has a redundant power supply? Besides, you might not be fully
confident of the continued flawless operation of your other avionics,
but they're the best you've got.

I'm familiar with what the FARs and the AIM say. What I say comes from 20
years experience as an air traffic controller, Center, TRACON, and tower.
You can believe what I tell you, or you can believe your fantasies, I don't
care which.

Have you ever dealt with IFR NORDOs? When I was working on my rating,
the attitude in the school was "partial panel is important, but the
chances of that happening are low, and your chances of surviving one
are even lower, so don't worry about it too much beyond the
checkride." 70 logged hours later, I had a gyro failure in IMC, didn't
break out until 50' above MDA and lived to tell the tale. I haven't
lost radios so far, but ever since that incident, I'm curious about
"improbable failures" and how frequent they are.

That said, I hear what you are saying about dwelling too much on
developing procedures for infrequent, freak occurrences.

I'm curious, you're saying everything is shut down until the NORDO
lands. Is there a good reason pilots are taught one set of procedures,
while ATC follow another?

Ari.

"K. Ari Krupnikov" wrote in message
...

My 196 has a redundant power supply?


Beats the hell outta me. Read the manual.



Besides, you might not be fully
confident of the continued flawless operation of your other avionics,
but they're the best you've got.


That lack of confidence is the reason it's better to land than to hold.



Have you ever dealt with IFR NORDOs?


Many times.



I'm curious, you're saying everything is shut down until the NORDO
lands.


Oh, I don't think I said that.



Is there a good reason pilots are taught one set of procedures,
while ATC follow another?


No.

"Steven P. McNicoll" writes:

"K. Ari Krupnikov" wrote in message
...

My 196 has a redundant power supply?


Beats the hell outta me. Read the manual.

That wasn't really a question. The question mark referred to it being
one possible answer to your "what bizarre failure". Prepend "how
about" to make it grammatical.

Garmin 196 is powered by 4 AA batteries and will provide ~4 hours of
guidance after the cigarette lighter adapter goes dead. So I could
have no comms, no mode c and no electrical, and still know with some
confidence where I am.

I admit that this is an unlikely set of circumstances as I also carry
a handheld transceiver. OTOH, it never occurred to me to carry a
handheld transponder :=)

Ari.

"K. Ari Krupnikov" wrote in message
...

That wasn't really a question. The question mark referred to it being
one possible answer to your "what bizarre failure". Prepend "how
about" to make it grammatical.

Garmin 196 is powered by 4 AA batteries and will provide ~4 hours of
guidance after the cigarette lighter adapter goes dead. So I could
have no comms, no mode c and no electrical, and still know with some
confidence where I am.

I admit that this is an unlikely set of circumstances as I also carry
a handheld transceiver. OTOH, it never occurred to me to carry a
handheld transponder :=)


I see. After a failure that causes you to lose both of your completely
independent transceivers, and your transponder, you're confident of the
continued flawless operation of your other avionics because your other
avionics consist solely of a battery operated Garmin 196.

Hi Steven,

So Air Traffic will shut down everything in reasonable distance of the
aircrafts routing until such time it lands its destination or a call is
received from the pilot saying he is on the ground after landing in vmc
conditions?

If this is the case (which I really hope it is) why are we taught that, in
the event of lost comms we are supposed to commence an approach at the ETA
or EFC time? Surely air traffic want us on the ground as soon as possible
to get us out of the way and to start the flow of normal traffic again.
Strange that pilots are taught one thing and air traffic follow slightly
different procedures / would like us to follow slightly different
procedures.

As you say this would really be a very unlikely situation where the
comm/xponder fail at the same time without the navs being affected also.
Handheld GPS could come in handy in this scenario though.

Sorry for the last post, these night shifts are really getting to me now
(its 4am in the morning in the UK)... I need to sleep!!!

Best wishes,

Richard Thomas.
EGFF / BT12