Arrest King Daley!

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:7sOUe.321955$x96.282834@attbi_s72...
That statement is as incorrect as George's. For example, money had in
fact been budgeted for repair of the levees, but later was diverted to
fund the Iraq war.

Source?

I'm tempted to use the "just****inggoogleit.com" web site here, but in the
interest of whatever, here's the first Google link from a trivially easy
search:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ea..._id=1001051313

There are plenty of other articles documenting the fact, if you bother to
look.

While you may consider the Washington ADIZ to be a disaster on a scale
with Katrina, I suspect most of us don't see any comparison.

The scale of the "disaster" is irrelevant to the comparison. The principle
you're espousing should apply equally regardless.

I can believe that YOU don't understand the comparison. But that's only
because it contradicts what you think. You have never changed your mind on
anything, nor have you ever admitted error, and I don't expect to see you do
it now. But the fact remains, you putting 100% of the blame on the local
governments in New Orleans and Louisiana just because they "didn't lobby
hard enough or effectively" just makes no sense.

Lack of federal action does not prove that someone did not lobby hard
enough. All it proves is that the federal government took no action.

Pete

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:GwNUe.4455$c27.1695@trndny01...
Jay Honeck wrote:

I'm really, REALLY tired of
New Orleans politicians pointing the finger of blame everywhere except
at
their own chests.

Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who fell
down
on they job.

I don't think you can back-up that statement. Indications are the local and
state governments did little to nothing.


George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"Tom S." wrote in message
...
[...]
read the rest at:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=19418

Of course, what that article fails to point out is that the
environmentalists were actually right. In spite of their efforts, other
projects (diversion of the Mississipi River mainly) have nearly obliterated
the wetlands around New Orleans that provide a buffer from storms.

Not all that surprising, given the intense right-wing slant of
frontpagemag.com.

This is an article from 2001, quite closely predicting exactly what
happened, and explaining some of the environmental issues related to it:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?cha...mber=1&catID=2

Basically, it would have been possible to provide useful protection to New
Orleans *without* destroying the wetlands, and in fact protecting and
restoring the wetlands was one of the most important things they could have
done to protect New Orleans from storms. Destroying more of the environment
in order to compensate for destruction already wrought is a senseless
approach.

Pete

Story about a story. Go back to the actual articles and see what the
source was. Most likely those sorry sacks of **** in Congress who could
make levee improvements happen getting their fat asses off the hook
blaming it on some other dude much like OJ.

The Corps of Engineers budget has become a smoke and mirrors game with
the President going low the Congress could adding their pet projects to
get brownie points with voters. Any definitive study has to look at any
and all projects in Louisiana that were added by Congress or the
spending increased by Congress. If and only if Congress never added a
nickel to the original budget requests from the Corps, then you can
blame somebody else.


"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:7sOUe.321955$x96.282834@attbi_s72...
That statement is as incorrect as George's. For example, money had
in fact been budgeted for repair of the levees, but later was
diverted to fund the Iraq war.

Source?

I'm tempted to use the "just****inggoogleit.com" web site here, but in
the interest of whatever, here's the first Google link from a
trivially easy search:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ea..._id=1001051313

There are plenty of other articles documenting the fact, if you bother
to look.

While you may consider the Washington ADIZ to be a disaster on a
scale with Katrina, I suspect most of us don't see any comparison.

The scale of the "disaster" is irrelevant to the comparison. The
principle you're espousing should apply equally regardless.

I can believe that YOU don't understand the comparison. But that's
only because it contradicts what you think. You have never changed
your mind on anything, nor have you ever admitted error, and I don't
expect to see you do it now. But the fact remains, you putting 100%
of the blame on the local governments in New Orleans and Louisiana
just because they "didn't lobby hard enough or effectively" just makes
no sense.

Lack of federal action does not prove that someone did not lobby hard
enough. All it proves is that the federal government took no action.

Pete

"sfb" wrote in message news:SAOUe.5043$8h6.369@trnddc09...
The lawsuit stopped a plan in the lake. Do you have a reference where the
lawsuit prevented levee improvements after the 1970s? If so, you should
tell the Corps cause they are still working on the levees. Sounds like a
song.

Read again what the suit prevented and the enviro's comments. Also, unless
overturned, the holding by the judge still stands.


http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/re...asp?prj=lkpon1

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

"sfb" wrote in message
news:08OUe.5035$8h6.4620@trnddc09...
New Orleans politicians includes the Congressional delegation who are
the Federals. While the President proposes, the Congress writes and
passes the legislation. That the levees weren't upgraded is as much the
fault of the Congressional delegation as anybody as they have the power
to make it happen if they had wanted.

Not quite:

In the 1970s, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ Lake Pontchartrain and
Vicinity Hurricane Barrier Project planned to build fortifications at two
strategic locations, which would keep massive storms on the Gulf of
Mexico from causing Lake Pontchartrain to flood the city. An article in
the May 28, 2005, New Orleans Times-Picayune stated, “Under the original
plan, floodgate-type structures would have been built at the Rigolets and
Chef Menteur passes to block storm surges from moving from the Gulf into
Lake Pontchartrain.”



“The floodgates would have blocked the flow of water from the Gulf of
Mexico, through Lake Borgne, through the Rigolets [and Chef Mentuer] into
Lake Pontchartrain,” declared Professor Gregory Stone, the James P.
Morgan Distinguished Professor and Director of the Coastal Studies
Institute of Louisiana State University. “This would likely have reduced
storm surge coming from the Gulf and into the Lake Pontchartrain,”
Professor Stone told Michael P. Tremoglie during an interview on
September 6. The professor concluded, “[T]hese floodgates would have
alleviated the flooding of New Orleans caused by Hurricane Katrina.”

The New Orleans Army Corps of Engineers and Professor Stone were not the
only people cognizant of the consequences that could and did result
because of the environmental activists. While speaking with Sean Hannity
on his radio show on Labor Day, former Louisiana Congressman and Speaker
of the House Bob Livingston also referred to environmentalists whose
litigation prevented hurricane prevention projects.

In other words, unlike other programs – including the ones leftists like
Sid Blumenthal excoriated the president for not funding – these
constructions might have prevented the loss of life experienced in the
aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.


Why was this project aborted? As the Times-Picayune wrote, “Those plans
were abandoned after environmental advocates successfully sued to stop
the projects as too damaging to the wetlands and the lake's eco-system.”
(Emphasis added.) Specifically, in 1977, a state environmentalist group
known as Save Our Wetlands (SOWL) sued to have it stopped. SOWL stated
the proposed Rigolets and Chef Menteur floodgates of the Lake
Pontchartrain Hurricane Prevention Project would have a negative effect
on the area surrounding Lake Pontchartrain. Further, SOWL’s recollection
of this case demonstrates they considered this move the first step in a
perfidious design to drain Lake Pontchartrain entirely and open the area
to dreaded capitalist investment.


On December 30, 1977, U.S. District Judge Charles Schwartz Jr. issued an
injunction against the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Lake Pontchartrain
hurricane protection project, demanding the engineers draw up a second
environmental impact statement, three years after the corps submitted the
first one. In one of the most ironic pronouncements of all time, Judge
Schwartz wrote, “it is the opinion of the Court that plaintiffs herein
have demonstrated that they, and in fact all persons in this area, will
be irreparably harmed if the barrier project based upon the August, 1974
FEIS [federal environmental impact statement] is allowed to continue.”

read the rest at:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=19418

"sfb" wrote in message news:mVOUe.5047$8h6.2748@trnddc09...
Story about a story. Go back to the actual articles and see what the
source was. Most likely those sorry sacks of **** in Congress who could
make levee improvements happen getting their fat asses off the hook
blaming it on some other dude much like OJ.

Yeah, right. Whatever. I don't see how your oh-so-eloquent version of the
blame game is even mutually exclusive with what I wrote, or what the article
says.

My point is that the federal government shares plenty of blame. Frankly, it
should be obvious to even the most dim observer that the Iraq war, *and* all
of the domestic anti-terrorism crap, has diverted huge amounts of money. To
the tune of, oh, nearly half a TRILLION DOLLARS!

[...] If and only if Congress never added a nickel to the original budget
requests from the Corps, then you can blame somebody else.

I can and do blame lots of different people, Congress included.

Pete

("George Patterson" wrote)
I'm really, REALLY tired of New Orleans politicians pointing the finger
of blame everywhere except at their own chests.

Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who fell
down on they job.


[Book links below]
I saw an author, John M Barry, on (Book TV - honest, that's what it's called
g) C-Span2. Not a great speaker, but his research was interesting as hell.
1927 Mississippi River flood - including New Orleans.

One look at events surrounding the flood was - Hoover was all about spin
....and PR, and he was the master of both. He was also all about being FEMA,
the National Guard, Mayor Rudy Giuliani, and the Red Cross all rolled into
one ....to which the Author gives high praise to Hoover for the outstanding
job he did successfully wearing those many different hats.

It was 1927 and Hoover wasn't even anyone's dark horse candidate for
nomination, by his party, in the next summer's presidential convention.

When the devastating 1927 Mississippi River flood hit, he was the man put in
charge of the relief effort. His successful handling of the Mississippi
River flood relief program helped launch him into the White House the
following fall.

Some obstacals for Hoover we
Half that part of the country didn't have paved roads, electricity, or
telephones. There was also no good national highway system, plus local maps
in 1932 were iffy at best. Helicopters were nowhere to be found and few
boats had motors on them. Radios were not in all homes (looking for a web %
but came up empty) and field communications were difficult.

And yet, Herbert Hoover did an 'outstanding' job. How he did it and what he
was up against are covered in the book. Hope it's a good read ($10 at
Amazon). It was a GREAT Q&A TV segment with the author.


http://www.powells.com/biblio?PID=29017&cgi=product&isbn=0684840022
Rising Tide: The Great Mississippi Flood of 1927 and How It Changed America

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0684840022/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-4945882-4273705#reader-link
Amazon.com link. Ordered a copy tonight for my brother's birthday -
fascinating history, I'll read it when he finishes the book :-)


http://www.mises.org/freemarket_detail.asp?control=8&sortorder=articled ate
An author less impressed with Herbert Hoover's flood relief efforts.


Montblack

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 21:23:32 -0700, Tom S. wrote:

Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who fell
down on they job.

Total, absolute BS.

but what are the reasons for hindering (? - do they?) foreign help? this is
a federal thing.

yesterday on a German TV channel: about 15 tons of ready prepared meals may
not be delivered, they are already in a cargo plane. A small mobile ER with
its own power generator was delayed for 3 days, ready to be sent to help
out a little bit. At least, the German THW is now on site with their pumps
http://www.thw.bund.de/

martin

--
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed,
most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we
come in; we're computer professionals. We cause accidents.
-- Nathaniel Borenstein

In article GwNUe.4455$c27.1695@trndny01, George Patterson wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:

I'm really, REALLY tired of
New Orleans politicians pointing the finger of blame everywhere except at
their own chests.

Tough ****. They did everything they could. The Feds are the ones who fell down
on they job.


The Mayor and Governor should have admitted that they had not prepared for a
hurricane and were helpless *before* the hurricane.. Instead, they
continue to pretend that they had been doing their jobs and should stay
in charge.

On a newscast yesterday morning, various officials were giving status
reports and guidelines for what to expect. The Chief of Police spent
more than half of his allotted time asking for help for his wife who was
already safely in another city. Typical.

Not that FEMA did much better this time than they did in previous
hurricanes.

Rather than another useless attempt to "fix" governments ability to
conduct relief operations we should admit that governments simply don't
get the job done and change the tax code to provide a dollar for dollar
tax (not AGI reduction) for donations to private relief organizations.

In article , Peter Duniho wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:eLNUe.321892$x96.27592@attbi_s72...
[...]
New Orleans politicians were at the very least incompetent, at the very
most criminally responsible for the death of their city. If the Federal
Government didn't do something, it is only because local politicians
didn't lobby hard enough or effectively.

That statement is as incorrect as George's. For example, money had in fact
been budgeted for repair of the levees, but later was diverted to fund the
Iraq war.

Upgrading the levees has been put off by both Democrat and Republican
congresses since at least the Carter administration with more than a
little help from environmentalists who along with other barking moon bats
like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. who claim that the hurricane was Bushes fault.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=19418