logging (PIC) time

"cjcampbell" wrote

Pilot 1 logs PIC as sole manipulator of the controls. Pilot 2 logs PIC
as a required crewmember acting as PIC. Pilot 2 could not log PIC if
pilot 1 was current because then pilot 2 would not be a required
crewmember.

BS! CJ....The certification of the a/c does not require two pilots
and the rules under which it is operated do not require two pilots.
Pilot 2 logs NOTHING.

Bob Moore

Bob Moore wrote:
"cjcampbell" wrote

Pilot 1 logs PIC as sole manipulator of the controls. Pilot 2 logs PIC
as a required crewmember acting as PIC. Pilot 2 could not log PIC if
pilot 1 was current because then pilot 2 would not be a required
crewmember.

BS! CJ....The certification of the a/c does not require two pilots
and the rules under which it is operated do not require two pilots.
Pilot 2 logs NOTHING.


Since Pilot #1 isn't current, isn't this analogous to letting one of the
passengers handle the controls? Pilot #2 would be the only one current and
therefore MUST be the PIC. Pilot #1 is effectively the passenger. If he wants
to be more, he needs to get his BFR and / or medical current.

If he has an accident, you can be sure his insurance company will use his lack
of currency as an excuse to avoid having to pay.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Mortimer Schnerd wrote:
Bob Moore wrote:
"cjcampbell" wrote

Pilot 1 logs PIC as sole manipulator of the controls. Pilot 2 logs PIC
as a required crewmember acting as PIC. Pilot 2 could not log PIC if
pilot 1 was current because then pilot 2 would not be a required
crewmember.

BS! CJ....The certification of the a/c does not require two pilots
and the rules under which it is operated do not require two pilots.
Pilot 2 logs NOTHING.


Since Pilot #1 isn't current, isn't this analogous to letting one of the
passengers handle the controls? Pilot #2 would be the only one current
and
therefore MUST be the PIC. Pilot #1 is effectively the passenger. If he
wants
to be more, he needs to get his BFR and / or medical current.

Yes, Pilot #2 is *acting* as PIC, but that in itself does not allow him/her
to log it as PIC.

Hilton

According to AOPA CJ is correct.

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/pic.html

Any Pilot that is rated for the aircraft, meaning ASEL if the plane is
single engine land, can log PIC time for the time he is sole
manipulator of the controls. This is true whether or not he has a
current medical, BFR or, if the plane meets the criteria, the
endorsements required for high performance and/or complex aircraft.
However, there must be a pilot in the plane that DOES meet all the
requirements for the plane being flown.

Typical FAR's...clear as mud!

Chris

Bob Moore wrote:
"cjcampbell" wrote

Pilot 1 logs PIC as sole manipulator of the controls. Pilot 2 logs PIC
as a required crewmember acting as PIC. Pilot 2 could not log PIC if
pilot 1 was current because then pilot 2 would not be a required
crewmember.

BS! CJ....The certification of the a/c does not require two pilots
and the rules under which it is operated do not require two pilots.
Pilot 2 logs NOTHING.

Bob Moore

Chris wrote:
According to AOPA CJ is correct.

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/pic.html

Any Pilot that is rated for the aircraft, meaning ASEL if the plane is
single engine land, can log PIC time for the time he is sole
manipulator of the controls. This is true whether or not he has a
current medical, BFR or, if the plane meets the criteria, the
endorsements required for high performance and/or complex aircraft.
However, there must be a pilot in the plane that DOES meet all the
requirements for the plane being flown.

Typical FAR's...clear as mud!

If you looked in Part 61, you would see that Part 61 with regards logging
PIC is pretty darn clear, you just need to read it in B&W without trying to
read between the lines.

BTW: This AOPA text is exactly consistent with what Bob and I wrote and
inconsistent with what CJ wrote.

Hilton

Scenario #1
Pilot A wants to accompany Pilot B on a cross country flight in a
single engine, high performance aircraft. Pilot A is rated for the
airplane, but does not have a current medical, high performance
endorsement, or current biennial flight review. Pilot A will be
practicing simulated instrument flying, wearing a view limited device
and will be sole manipulator of the controls during the enroute portion
of the flight. Pilot B meets all the requirements to be PIC and has
agreed to be PIC and safety pilot during the flight.

Under these circumstances, Pilot A may log PIC time and simulated
instrument time, Pilot B may log PIC time, but not instrument time,
since he/she is not operating the aircraft by reference to instruments
(FAR 61.51).


How can you read this and say that it is consistent with what you and
Bob are saying. In the above scenario, Pilot A does not have a current
medical, BFR or required endosements, but he can log the time spent as
sole manipulator of the controls as PIC. Pilot B is current and has the
required endorsements. Therefore he is a required crewmember and can
log PIC. This seems to me more consistent with what CJ posted and the
above scenario is very similar to the question in the orignal post.

wrote in message
ups.com...
[...]
How can you read this and say that it is consistent with what you and
Bob are saying.

He can say that, because it is.

In the above scenario, Pilot A does not have a current
medical, BFR or required endosements, but he can log the time spent as
sole manipulator of the controls as PIC.

True. As sole manipulator with the necessary category and class ratings, he
gets to log the flight, whether he is qualified to act as PIC or not.

Pilot B is current and has the required endorsements.

Since he's acting as PIC, he'd better be, and he'd better have.

Therefore he is a required crewmember

Since Pilot A cannot act as PIC, yes...Pilot B is a required crewmember.

and can log PIC.

True. But not for the reasons you've stated so far.

The only reason (in that scenario) that Pilot B is permitted to log the time
is that they are acting as safety pilot. The question of who is acting as
PIC is irrelevant. When flying in simulated instrument conditions, a safety
pilot is required, and thus invokes the "more than one pilot is required
under...the regulations under which the flight is conducted".

Being a required crewmember is not sufficient. If one is not manipulating
the controls, one must not only be a required crewmember, there must be more
than one pilot required.

Without the simulated instrument conditions, more than one pilot is NOT
required, and thus the pilot acting as PIC, though he is certainly required
(in a flight in which only one pilot is required), does not get to log the
time as PIC flight time.

This seems to me more consistent with what CJ posted

It seems to you, apparently. But it's not.

and the
above scenario is very similar to the question in the orignal post.

I'll grant you similar. But similar does not mean it is equivalent.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
[...] The question of who is acting as PIC is irrelevant.

And I really should clarify this:

When I say "irrelevant", I don't mean it's irrelevant to the question at
large. Simply that acting as PIC doesn't necessarily imply one can log PIC.
The regulation that allows Pilot B to log PIC time *does* require that Pilot
B be acting as PIC, so obviously it's relevant in that case.

IBean wrote:
Scenario #1
Pilot A wants to accompany Pilot B on a cross country flight in a
single engine, high performance aircraft. Pilot A is rated for the
airplane, but does not have a current medical, high performance
endorsement, or current biennial flight review. Pilot A will be
practicing simulated instrument flying, wearing a view limited device
and will be sole manipulator of the controls during the enroute portion
of the flight. Pilot B meets all the requirements to be PIC and has
agreed to be PIC and safety pilot during the flight.

Under these circumstances, Pilot A may log PIC time and simulated
instrument time, Pilot B may log PIC time, but not instrument time,
since he/she is not operating the aircraft by reference to instruments
(FAR 61.51).


How can you read this and say that it is consistent with what you and
Bob are saying.

Because in my very initial post I wrote: "Pilot 1 logs all the time, Pilot 2
logs nothing - this assumes that it is all VFR, no hoodwork, that Pilot 2
has all the endorsements etc to be PIC, and that Pilot 1 is rated in the
aircraft."

I cannot repeat myself every post. Therefore, given those restrictions, Bob
was correct, and since the original poster did not state restrictions or
conditions, I assumed and stated VFR with no hoodwork.

If you wanna use VFR with hood work, fine. Pilot A logs PIC time, and
simulated instrument time, as well as complex and hi-performance as
appropriate whether or not he/she has these endorsements. Pilot be logs PIC
if he/she was acting as PIC (which they are in your example), or SIC if
Pilot A was acting as PIC (with all the required stuff of course).

Hilton

Hilton wrote:
Chris wrote:
According to AOPA CJ is correct.

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/pic.html

Any Pilot that is rated for the aircraft, meaning ASEL if the plane is
single engine land, can log PIC time for the time he is sole
manipulator of the controls. This is true whether or not he has a
current medical, BFR or, if the plane meets the criteria, the
endorsements required for high performance and/or complex aircraft.
However, there must be a pilot in the plane that DOES meet all the
requirements for the plane being flown.

Typical FAR's...clear as mud!

If you looked in Part 61, you would see that Part 61 with regards logging
PIC is pretty darn clear, you just need to read it in B&W without trying to
read between the lines.


You are right. Part 61 is very clear. Pilot B is a required crewmember
for the operation of the flight and should log PIC. There is nothing in
part 61 specifying that pilot A has to be under the hood or any other
silly exceptions. Pilot A cannot fly the plane himself, so pilot B is
required. I should point out that in fact that it is common practice
that pilots who are unable to act as PIC to get a qualified friend to
fly with them. The lack of qualification does not prevent the pilot
from logging PIC since he is sole manipulator of the controls. The
other pilot is required to be on board by regulation -- someone who is
qualified has to be on board to act as PIC or the flight is illegal --
and should log PIC while doing so. The FAA has consistently ruled in
favor of this interpretation and it is also interpreted this way in the
part 61 FAQ. I also believe the AOPA interpretation supports my view. I
cannot understand why you seem to have a problem with this. The
regulations are very clear and were specifically written to allow for
this kind of situation.

The question of whether pilot B is actually PIC, though, is more
important. As Doug points out, if pilot B is not allowed to act as PIC
then he is not PIC and the flight then consists of a non-current pilot
and a passenger, which is illegal.