Wind/Solar Electrics ???

No, what is being marketed is a "Modified Square Wave" inverter.

The ignorant can be forgiven.

The shyster wants you to believe that you are buying a better inverter
than it really is.

Buyer beware.

Alan Adrian wrote:
No doubt you are correct....

But a "modified sine wave" inverter is a way for someone to tell you that
you are buying a device which doesn't put out a proper sine wave... rather
one which consists of an approximate sinusoidal curve made up from square
bits...

So it's not a modified sine wave, but rather a near sine wave with lots of
edges... Inferior in every way (but price) to a real sine wave inverter...

Al...

"George Ghio" wrote in message
...


wrote:


There are 2 main invertor options, sine or modified sine, which is IRL
rectangular wave. IIRC, iron fl ballasts and motors can overheat on
MSW, so all your apps ideally want sine. However MSW is much cheaper,
and there are workarounds. Fl lights can be run at just slightly
reduced power, or heatsinks added to the ballasts, etc. Electronic
ballast lights would run happily on 150v dc. Motor driven tools would
be fine as is unless youre running them to where they already get
seriously hot, ie heavy use. There are ways round it if it proves to be
an issue.

Small point.

Why would anybody modify a sine wave?

When people try to sell a "Modified Sine wave" inverter they are either
ignorant or shysters.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:33:33 +1100, the renowned George Ghio
wrote:



wrote:


There are 2 main invertor options, sine or modified sine, which is IRL
rectangular wave. IIRC, iron fl ballasts and motors can overheat on
MSW, so all your apps ideally want sine. However MSW is much cheaper,
and there are workarounds. Fl lights can be run at just slightly
reduced power, or heatsinks added to the ballasts, etc. Electronic
ballast lights would run happily on 150v dc. Motor driven tools would
be fine as is unless youre running them to where they already get
seriously hot, ie heavy use. There are ways round it if it proves to be
an issue.

Small point.

Why would anybody modify a sine wave?

When people try to sell a "Modified Sine wave" inverter they are either
ignorant or shysters.

To paraphrase a classic George Carlin routine- "I'll tell you what
'modified sine wave' means-- no f*cking sine waves".


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

"Spehro Pefhany" schreef in bericht
...
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:33:33 +1100, the renowned George Ghio
wrote:



wrote:


There are 2 main invertor options, sine or modified sine, which is IRL
rectangular wave. IIRC, iron fl ballasts and motors can overheat on
MSW, so all your apps ideally want sine. However MSW is much cheaper,
and there are workarounds. Fl lights can be run at just slightly
reduced power, or heatsinks added to the ballasts, etc. Electronic
ballast lights would run happily on 150v dc. Motor driven tools would
be fine as is unless youre running them to where they already get
seriously hot, ie heavy use. There are ways round it if it proves to be
an issue.

Small point.

Why would anybody modify a sine wave?

When people try to sell a "Modified Sine wave" inverter they are either
ignorant or shysters.

To paraphrase a classic George Carlin routine- "I'll tell you what
'modified sine wave' means-- no f*cking sine waves".

I would label the boxes with a nice star shaped
sticker "powerful harmonic sine waves".

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)

Frank Bemelman wrote:
"Spehro Pefhany" schreef in bericht
...
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:33:33 +1100, the renowned George Ghio


When people try to sell a "Modified Sine wave" inverter they are either
ignorant or shysters.

To paraphrase a classic George Carlin routine- "I'll tell you what
'modified sine wave' means-- no f*cking sine waves".

I would label the boxes with a nice star shaped
sticker "powerful harmonic sine waves".

ha, youre a natural

NT

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:02:56 -0800, "RST Engineering"
wrote:

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


Jim


Our cottage is off grid 400W worth of solar panels provide florescent
lighting plus enough left over to run a tv -satellite dish for an
hour or more off the inverter. storage is 8 12v deep cycle batteries.
To run power tools or the wringer washer I fire up the 2000w honda.

RST Engineering wrote:
After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.


Hello Jim,

A good friend of mine went a bit overboard...

http://www.solarwarrior.com/

-jav

Javier Henderson wrote:
RST Engineering wrote:
After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.


Hello Jim,

A good friend of mine went a bit overboard...

http://www.solarwarrior.com/


Here's a local family that went off the grid using a combination of
solar panels and (bio)diesel generators:

http://leavingthegrid.blogspot.com/

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:02:56 -0800, "RST Engineering"
wrote:

After much thought and ponderance, I've come to the conclusion that to
electrify the hangar using Pacific Gas & Electricity (PG&E -- Pigs, Goats,
and Elephants) isn't clever. By the time you get them to hang a meter
($5k), trench from the power pole to the end of the row of hangars, conduit
romex to 35 hangars at a cost somewhere around $50k ($1500 per hangar), and
then pay the monthly electric bill, you could buy a hell of a wind/solar
system and perch it on the (flat) hangar roof.

Before I flail about gathering data, has anybody on these ngs actually
installed a design whereby a hefty solar panel charges a hefty battery to
run a hefty inverter? It doesn't have to be absolutely "clean" sinewave
power as all we are running are fluorescent shop lights (about 400 watts
worth), every now and again a small compressor, a small drill press, a small
grinder, but none of these last few at the same time.

My hit on it is that a 2 kW inverter would be more than enough to handle the
AC side of it, and a bank of 12 volt truck batteries would work for the DC
side of it, but there are the problems of parallelling large batteries, how
to combine the outputs of solar cells and wind generators, and a reasonable
source for all this stuff.

There are issues around protecting the solar cells from hail, which we do
get from time to time, battery acidic gases inside a hangar where a very
expensive lump of aluminum is sitting for months on end, sizing the solar
cell and wind generators, and other considerations along these lines.

Comments appreciated.


Jim


Jim,

As one who lives "off-the-grid" in eastern Maine, (and for similar reasons,
I might add -- excess costs to run power here), perhaps I can be of some
assistance. We use both wind and solar to power our home, and also have a
backup generator. The problems of coordinating all these things has been
solved with readily available technology. As has all of the other issues
you mentioned.

In order to make an intelligent decision and design an economical system,
your very first step has to be to estimate your electricity usage as
accurately as possible. In addition to adding up your daily consumption in
kWh or amp-hours, you also have to consider peak loads. And, especially
since you may be using a compressor, you will also have to consider the
startup surge -- with a compressor this may be five to ten times the
running amps. That information should be decipherable from the motor face
plate.

The next step is to assess your solar resource, and there is information on
the web available for that. Being at an airport, my advice is to forget
about wind. You need to have a wind turbine on a tower high enough to get
out of turbulent air, in order to make it worthwhile. The required height
would encroach upon the FAA mandated clear zones.

I'd be happy to help if you like.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

It seems as though we are trying to build a cathedral foundation to hold an
outhouse. It isn't like I'm LIVING in the hangar, nor am I there working
all day every day. Sure, lights when you are elbow deep inside an engine
are nice, but hardly bleeding edge solar design. What? Ten fluorescent
fixtures with 80 watts of bulbs each? A drop cord with another 20 watt
fluorescent bulb? Perhaps a hand drill twice a day WHEN you are working in
the hangar?

As to the compressor, drill press, grinder etc., a gas generator for the few
times a month you need them is quite in order and certainly less expensive
in both the short and long term than gearing up for 100% solar for the
peaks. And, if you design the system correctly, letting the gas generator
run for an hour every time you fire up and letting the batteries take a full
charge from an inexpensive battery charger can add to the output of the
solar system.

I've done a little digging and it seems that Great Plains has the best
pricing on solar panels. Harbor Freight has a little better pricing, but I
need something that I can reliably get month in and month out (I'm the
guinea pig for about 50 hangars) and I can never rely on Harbor Freight to
have what I need when I need it.

My best guess after doing a little educated digging is that I can come up
with a system I can live with for a little over 1 AMU.

(For those of you not on the aviation newsgroups, an AMU is a measure of
money used to disguise the true cost of airplane ownership from other ...
ummm ... family members who might think that clothes, food, and other
nonessentials take priority over flying. 1 AMU = $1000US.)


Jim

In order to make an intelligent decision and design an economical system,
your very first step has to be to estimate your electricity usage as
accurately as possible. In addition to adding up your daily consumption
in
kWh or amp-hours, you also have to consider peak loads. And, especially
since you may be using a compressor, you will also have to consider the
startup surge -- with a compressor this may be five to ten times the
running amps. That information should be decipherable from the motor face
plate.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:29:12 -0800, RST Engineering (jw) wrote:

My best guess after doing a little educated digging is that I can come
up with a system I can live with for a little over 1 AMU.

(For those of you not on the aviation newsgroups, an AMU is a measure of
money used to disguise the true cost of airplane ownership from other
... ummm ... family members who might think that clothes, food, and
other nonessentials take priority over flying. 1 AMU = $1000US.)


"Aircraft Monetary Unit?"

I've heard that a boat is a hole in the water lined with wood, into
which one pours money. ;-)

Do airplane people have a similar saying? I have only a little bit of
experience with airplanes - I logged 4 hours in a Cessna 150 before the
local flight school got shut down because of fuel considerations, and
I've sat in a DC-9 simulator, and had a simulated airplane ride where
I drove, but I've never gotten into any of the cameraderie, like one
would do as a skydiver.

Yeah, that's it - the best experiences I've ever had with airplanes
has been either abusing them or jumping out of them. ;-P

But, do airplane guys use the term "money hole" like boat and house
owners?

You can't "pour" anything _up_, you know, albeit I have heard that
humans were created by water to transport itself uphill. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich