Report Leaving Assigned Altitude?

Dave Butler wrote:
----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without
a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a
newly assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply (assuming
the O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment is
superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".

It doesn't have to say that as it would be redundant. There is no way
to fly the visual approach clearance without descending! So, once you
are cleared for the visual, you are cleared to descend and turn as
required to execute the approach.


Matt

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities
without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for
a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply
(assuming the O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment
is superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".


It doesn't have to say that as it would be redundant. There is no way
to fly the visual approach clearance without descending! So, once you
are cleared for the visual, you are cleared to descend and turn as
required to execute the approach.

I'm not saying you can't descend when cleared for the visual (please read what I
wrote). I'm saying if you're at-an-assigned-altitude and cleared for the visual,
you have to report, since you're "vacating a previously assigned altitude".

My phraseology would be "spamcan 33333 cleared for the visual approach", then
when I (later) start the descent, "spamcan 33333 leaving 5000".

I'll concede that there is some ambiguity about whether the visual approach is a
"newly assigned altitude". I guess you could also argue that in the above
example 5000 is no longer an assigned altitude. Is that what you are saying? OK.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

"Dave Butler" wrote:
I'm not saying you can't descend when cleared for the visual ...
...I'm saying if you're at-an-assigned-altitude and cleared for
the visual, you have to report, since you're "vacating a
previously assigned altitude".

That would be a tortuous reading of the paragraph. My personal
experience is that I've flown scores of visual approaches without
reporting leaving my last assigned altitudes - ATC's never said
anything.

My phraseology would be "spamcan 33333 cleared for the
visual approach", then when I (later) start the descent,
"spamcan 33333 leaving 5000".

I don't recall ever hearing anyone say that on a visual approach.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?

Bob Gardner

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...


Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities
without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for
a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply
(assuming the O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment
is superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".


It doesn't have to say that as it would be redundant. There is no way
to fly the visual approach clearance without descending! So, once you
are cleared for the visual, you are cleared to descend and turn as
required to execute the approach.

I'm not saying you can't descend when cleared for the visual (please read
what I
wrote). I'm saying if you're at-an-assigned-altitude and cleared for the
visual,
you have to report, since you're "vacating a previously assigned
altitude".

My phraseology would be "spamcan 33333 cleared for the visual approach",
then
when I (later) start the descent, "spamcan 33333 leaving 5000".

I'll concede that there is some ambiguity about whether the visual
approach is a
"newly assigned altitude". I guess you could also argue that in the above
example 5000 is no longer an assigned altitude. Is that what you are
saying? OK.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Bob Gardner wrote:
"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?

Nope, I don't. The glideslope coming down is not a "newly assigned altitude".

OK, I'm grasping at straws to justify my position. I guess (in my mind) the key
thing is that on a visual approach clearance or a discretion to [altitude]
clearance, the controller has no way of anticipating my actions. I can either
start down now, or whenever I feel like it. So (to me) it seems reasonable that
I might be required to report, and I read the AIM paragraph that way.

It still seems to me that the discretion-to-altitude case definitely requires a
report, but, OK, I'll give up on the visual approach since that is arguably not
a newly assigned altitude.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.


Bob Gardner

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...


Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

Dave Butler wrote:


----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities
without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for
a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply
(assuming the O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment
is superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".


It doesn't have to say that as it would be redundant. There is no way
to fly the visual approach clearance without descending! So, once you
are cleared for the visual, you are cleared to descend and turn as
required to execute the approach.

I'm not saying you can't descend when cleared for the visual (please read

what I

wrote). I'm saying if you're at-an-assigned-altitude and cleared for the

visual,

you have to report, since you're "vacating a previously assigned

altitude".

My phraseology would be "spamcan 33333 cleared for the visual approach",

then

when I (later) start the descent, "spamcan 33333 leaving 5000".

I'll concede that there is some ambiguity about whether the visual

approach is a

"newly assigned altitude". I guess you could also argue that in the above
example 5000 is no longer an assigned altitude. Is that what you are

saying? OK.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.






--
Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367

I have received a bunch of PD clearances, and I always reported when I
started down, whether required or not. Seemed like the thing to do.

Bob Gardner

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...
Bob Gardner wrote:
"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?

Nope, I don't. The glideslope coming down is not a "newly assigned
altitude".

OK, I'm grasping at straws to justify my position. I guess (in my mind)
the key
thing is that on a visual approach clearance or a discretion to [altitude]
clearance, the controller has no way of anticipating my actions. I can
either
start down now, or whenever I feel like it. So (to me) it seems reasonable
that
I might be required to report, and I read the AIM paragraph that way.

It still seems to me that the discretion-to-altitude case definitely
requires a
report, but, OK, I'll give up on the visual approach since that is
arguably not
a newly assigned altitude.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.


Bob Gardner

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...


Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

Dave Butler wrote:


----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities
without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for
a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply
(assuming the O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment
is superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".


It doesn't have to say that as it would be redundant. There is no way
to fly the visual approach clearance without descending! So, once you
are cleared for the visual, you are cleared to descend and turn as
required to execute the approach.

I'm not saying you can't descend when cleared for the visual (please
read

what I

wrote). I'm saying if you're at-an-assigned-altitude and cleared for the

visual,

you have to report, since you're "vacating a previously assigned

altitude".

My phraseology would be "spamcan 33333 cleared for the visual approach",

then

when I (later) start the descent, "spamcan 33333 leaving 5000".

I'll concede that there is some ambiguity about whether the visual

approach is a

"newly assigned altitude". I guess you could also argue that in the
above
example 5000 is no longer an assigned altitude. Is that what you are

saying? OK.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.






--
Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367

Dave Butler wrote:
Bob Gardner wrote:

"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?


Nope, I don't. The glideslope coming down is not a "newly assigned
altitude".

No, but you are leaving a previously assigned altitude which is your
original point as I recall. And the point is that once cleared for the
approach, you are also cleared to enter and leave all altitudes from
that point until you are on the runway.


OK, I'm grasping at straws to justify my position. I guess (in my mind)
the key thing is that on a visual approach clearance or a discretion to
[altitude] clearance, the controller has no way of anticipating my
actions. I can either start down now, or whenever I feel like it. So (to
me) it seems reasonable that I might be required to report, and I read
the AIM paragraph that way.

Yes, you are grasping for straws. :-)


It still seems to me that the discretion-to-altitude case definitely
requires a report, but, OK, I'll give up on the visual approach since
that is arguably not a newly assigned altitude.

Hopefully, one of the resident ATC folks will chime in with what they
believe is correct.


Matt

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

Bob Gardner wrote:

"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?



Nope, I don't. The glideslope coming down is not a "newly assigned
altitude".


No, but you are leaving a previously assigned altitude which is your
original point as I recall. And the point is that once cleared for the
approach, you are also cleared to enter and leave all altitudes from
that point until you are on the runway.

My "original point" is that we should do what the AIM says with regard to
reporting leaving assigned altitudes for a newly assigned altitude. The AIM says
(paraphrasing) that you should report when leaving an assigned altitude *for a
newly assigned altitude*.

I viewed a clearance for a visual approach as a newly assigned altitude. As a
result of this discussion, I no longer hold that view. I never viewed a falling
glideslope needle as a newly assigned altitude.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Dave Butler wrote:
Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

Dave Butler wrote:

Bob Gardner wrote:

"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?




Nope, I don't. The glideslope coming down is not a "newly assigned
altitude".



No, but you are leaving a previously assigned altitude which is your
original point as I recall. And the point is that once cleared for
the approach, you are also cleared to enter and leave all altitudes
from that point until you are on the runway.


My "original point" is that we should do what the AIM says with regard
to reporting leaving assigned altitudes for a newly assigned altitude.
The AIM says (paraphrasing) that you should report when leaving an
assigned altitude *for a newly assigned altitude*.

Well, first, the AIM is advisory, not regulatory. However, I also agree
that it is good practice to adhere to the AIM suggestions. I don't
believe that the AIM section you are paraphrasing applies here as I
believe that a visual approach essentially has given you a new altitude
clearance, actually altitude range from where you are at the time of
accepting the clearance down to the airport elevation and thus you are
no longer leaving an assigned altitude.


I viewed a clearance for a visual approach as a newly assigned altitude.
As a result of this discussion, I no longer hold that view. I never
viewed a falling glideslope needle as a newly assigned altitude.

Yes, the visual approach is a newly assigned altitude range which goes
clean down to the runway.


Matt

Bob Gardner wrote:
"Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report
leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down?

Good analogy. You made the point better than I did.

Matt