1 Fatal ...r.a.h or r.a.p?

kd5sak wrote:

Same tactic killed Wiley Post and Will Rogers. Don't fly myself, but in a
lifetime of reading
I've seen several references to crashes occuring from pilots trying to turn
back to a runway
when they had a reasonably flat bit of terrain in front of them. It's been
said that Post knew better, but had the family fortune tied up in the plane
he and Will were traveling in and just let that drive his decision making.
What do some of you actual pilots think?

Harold
KD5SAK



It's hard to put any iron clad rules on it before hand as the situation
you are dealing with could be quite different each time.

I've never had one quit completely on me.
But I did have a C-85 sag rather dramatically on takeoff to the south
from Crystal River in Florida.

I had been idling too long and the plugs loaded up on me.
(Leo had trouble starting the T-Cart and I went to help him.)

I "burned them off" by running up a bit until the mags checked ok,
but at about 300 feet the thing went sour again.
I just got in a hurry to catch up with my lead.
Foolish lizard.

Hotel about 1/2 mile straight ahead(!), Interstate with bumper to
bumper traffic to the right, and a 4000 foot paved runway directly
below (cross ways). I mean directly straight down...

Damn it but that hotel suddenly looked real big!

I turned left for the cross wind runway, crabbing away from it in order
not to be blown further north, with the idea that if it did quit I'd
rather "land" someplace on the airport that in a parking lot.

The engine cleared in a dozen or so (very extremely way too long!) seconds
and I decided to abort the abort and head on home.

But I think the upholstery pattern is still imprinted on that pair of
jeans...

Thinking back on it (way after the fact), I probably should have turned
a little further north and let the wind blow me across the runway to set
up for a right base. I don't think I'd have made the runway if the engine
had quit from where I was. It would required a real tight turn from base
to final - down wind.

But I may have been a _little_ distracted and didn't think of it in time.

Sonny sez, "The problem with aviation is that you can't make the same mistake
_once_". He has a point, you know.

Richard

"Richard Lamb" wrote in message
ink.net...
kd5sak wrote:
I've seen several references to crashes occuring from pilots trying to
turn back to a runway when they had a reasonably flat bit of terrain in
front of them. It's been said that Post knew better, but had the family
fortune tied up in the plane he and Will were traveling in and just let
that drive his decision making. What do some of you actual pilots think?

Harold
KD5SAK


It's hard to put any iron clad rules on it before hand as the situation
you are dealing with could be quite different each time.

I've never had one quit completely on me.
But I did have a C-85 sag rather dramatically on takeoff to the south
from Crystal River in Florida.

I had been idling too long and the plugs loaded up on me.
(Leo had trouble starting the T-Cart and I went to help him.)

I "burned them off" by running up a bit until the mags checked ok,
but at about 300 feet the thing went sour again.
I just got in a hurry to catch up with my lead.
Foolish lizard.

Hotel about 1/2 mile straight ahead(!), Interstate with bumper to
bumper traffic to the right, and a 4000 foot paved runway directly
below (cross ways). I mean directly straight down...

Damn it but that hotel suddenly looked real big!

I turned left for the cross wind runway, crabbing away from it in order
not to be blown further north, with the idea that if it did quit I'd
rather "land" someplace on the airport that in a parking lot.

The engine cleared in a dozen or so (very extremely way too long!) seconds
and I decided to abort the abort and head on home.

But I think the upholstery pattern is still imprinted on that pair of
jeans...

Thinking back on it (way after the fact), I probably should have turned
a little further north and let the wind blow me across the runway to set
up for a right base. I don't think I'd have made the runway if the engine
had quit from where I was. It would required a real tight turn from base
to final - down wind.

But I may have been a _little_ distracted and didn't think of it in time.

Sonny sez, "The problem with aviation is that you can't make the same
mistake
_once_". He has a point, you know.

Richard

Thanks for the reply, after reading about it so often over the years I've
often
wondered what actual pilots might think. Nearest thing I've had happen was
motorcycling.
Cornered a long curve much too fast and drifted off the road and shoulder
until I wound up paralleling a 4 strand barbed wire fence about two feet
away at speed. Don't know how fast but had slowed some by then. Stayed out
of it and finally crossed back onto the road but kept thinking, "self, you
should have layed it down".I think it's almost always better to be lucky
than smart when critical decisions are necessary..

Harold
KD5SAK

"kd5sak" wrote in message
. ..
Thanks for the reply, after reading about it so often over the years I've
often
wondered what actual pilots might think. Nearest thing I've had happen was
motorcycling.

Actually, the 180 degree unpowered return from takeoff is a pretty constant
and well-known killer of pilots. The statics say it is much better to crash
straight ahead under control than to stall-spin-crash. Gliders are a bit of a
different story. I am a glider CFI and we actually teach 180 degree returns
from 400 feet.


Cornered a long curve much too fast and drifted off the road and shoulder
until I wound up paralleling a 4 strand barbed wire fence about two feet away
at speed. Don't know how fast but had slowed some by then. Stayed out of it
and finally crossed back onto the road but kept thinking, "self, you should
have layed it down".I think it's almost always better to be lucky than smart
when critical decisions are necessary..

I will never forget shortly after I traded my Honda 305 for an Earles-fork
BMW. I went tearing down the road following my friends. When we came to the
Interstate, they all gracefully took the 45 degree turn onto the on-ramp while I
(using the techniques learned from the sprightly little Honda) only managed
about 22 degrees...

Vaughn WB4UHB

"Vaughn" wrote in message
...
snip
I will never forget shortly after I traded my Honda 305 for an Earles-fork BMW. I went tearing down the road
following my friends. When we came to the Interstate, they all gracefully took the 45 degree turn onto the on-ramp
while I (using the techniques learned from the sprightly little Honda) only managed about 22 degrees...

Vaughn WB4UHB

A Honda 305 Dream? Wow! That brings back memories.... from an ex Honda 350 pilot. When I was about 14 or 15 I
thought these were huge, powerful bikes.

Joe Schneider
8437R



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Vaughn wrote:

Actually, the 180 degree unpowered return from takeoff is a pretty
constant
and well-known killer of pilots. The statics say it is much better to
crash
straight ahead under control than to stall-spin-crash. Gliders are a
bit of a
different story. I am a glider CFI and we actually teach 180 degree
returns
from 400 feet.

My question would be why can't powered pilots be taught the same thing.
Granted they don't face the same situation on such a regular basis as
the glider pilot, but as the group is discussing, it would be a valuable
skill.

Steve

There's a difference between a glider with a 30:1 L/D and a Cessna with
9:1. Doing a 180 in a glider from 400' is like doing it in a Cessna
from 1200'.

Good point, I hadn't thought about that aspect.

Steve

"Richard Riley" wrote in message
oups.com...
There's a difference between a glider with a 30:1 L/D and a Cessna with
9:1. Doing a 180 in a glider from 400' is like doing it in a Cessna
from 1200'.


Richard, Richard, Richard ...

A normal poweroff landing is a 180 back to the field from 800 feet.
Cessnas make them quite handily all of the time! :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

Richard Riley wrote:
There's a difference between a glider with a 30:1 L/D and a Cessna with
9:1. Doing a 180 in a glider from 400' is like doing it in a Cessna
from 1200'.

Yeah. Forget about turnbacks, a high performance glider can complete an
abbreviated circuit from 400 ft. Even lower performance gliders can
safely complete a 180 after a rope break from 200ft if you are react
promptly. In fact if you're lucky you may find some lift while doing
the 180 and who knows you may be able dump the rope and climb out of
your emergency and go soaring! (just kidding) The main problem with
gliders on 180s from rope breaks is not making the turn in time, it's
avoiding overrunning the field in the subsequent downwind landing.

For powerplanes, it would be prudent to go to a safe altitude and
practice 180s upon chopping power and noting the altitude loss with
optimum technique (although it's murder on the poor cylinders, best to
use a renter...). The least loss is with a hard 45 deg banked turn. If
with some practice you can confidently complete a 180 with say a 400 ft
altitude loss you can set a defined go-nogo limit of say 500 ft for
turnbacks and you've removed the guesswork from it.

John

"J.Kahn" wrote in message
.. .

For powerplanes, it would be prudent to go to a safe altitude and practice
180s upon chopping power and noting the altitude loss with optimum
technique (although it's murder on the poor cylinders, best to use a
renter...). The least loss is with a hard 45 deg banked turn. If with
some practice you can confidently complete a 180 with say a 400 ft
altitude loss you can set a defined go-nogo limit of say 500 ft for
turnbacks and you've removed the guesswork from it.

I dont know. doing this at altitude makes the manuver safe, and learning to
perfect it that way can give the pilot overconfidence.

best to make sure your'e never in the situation that call for such a
manuver, and take the taime to make sur the plane works rather than building
confidence that you can do what others haven't