Get Rid Of Warbirds At Oshkosh

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Blueskies.,

You said vaporware - vaporware doesn't fly, maybe a vaporplane...


Something flew, yes. Was it a product from Cessna? Hardly.

Vaporware in my book is something you demo to great effect but with
nothing even remotely approaching a finished product in sight, let
alone a firm date for a finished product "on the shelves". Often, the
purpose is to keep the impressed masses from buying an available
product from the competition while playing catch-up with that
competition after you have badly dropped the ball.

IMHO, what Cessna did qualifies fully and in all aspects.

I think many would disagree with your definition.

Vaporware to most, is a plan, some nice specifications, and some 3-D cad
pictures. Have the computer crash, and what do you have to show for your
airplane? Nothing. Vapor!
--
Jim in NC

Morgans,

I think many would disagree with your definition.


Hey, that's what usenet is all about, isn't it? ;-)

Here's what I'm trying to say:

If one looks beyond the Ah's and Oh's of the excellently executed
Cessna marketing presentation, one sees two "proof of concept"
airplanes. Both are destined for market categories that are already
well filled with other company's products. As an aside: That means
there are no concepts to prove, really, other than the concept of
Cessna entering those markets. So what we really see is Cessna waking
up to market trends that have been apparent and established for years,
if not decades. What we also see is that a certified product from
Cessna in either category is years away.

And all that together, in my view, shows a failure of Cessna rather
than a success. It's still great that they might(!) enter those
markets, but the presentation was underwhelming to me in that it was
too little too late and no firm commitment.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...


And all that together, in my view, shows a failure of Cessna rather
than a success. It's still great that they might(!) enter those
markets, but the presentation was underwhelming to me in that it was
too little too late and no firm commitment.

--

It does look like Cessna is coming late to the party in both the LSA and the
"Cirrus Killer" arena. Another company showing up late to the LSA party is
Van's. They've had the RV-12 on the drawing board since before I started
building my 601 back in 2002 and they have yet to get a kit to market much
less a completed S-LSA.

Piper it seems isn't going to come and play in either sandbox and are
counting on Honda's VLJ to make them relevant. Good luck with that.

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

It does look like Cessna is coming late to the party in both the LSA and the
"Cirrus Killer" arena. Another company showing up late to the LSA party is
Van's. They've had the RV-12 on the drawing board since before I started
building my 601 back in 2002 and they have yet to get a kit to market much
less a completed S-LSA.

Or one might say that Vans has surveyed the LSA specs and market and is
carefully developing the RV-12 instead of rushing to market.

I'd be willing to bet that five years from now that the RV-12 will
outnumber all of the other flying homebuilt LSAs.

- John Ousterhout -

"John Ousterhout" wrote in
message news:bG9Cg.883926$084.394004@attbi_s22...
Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

It does look like Cessna is coming late to the party in both the LSA and
the "Cirrus Killer" arena. Another company showing up late to the LSA
party is Van's. They've had the RV-12 on the drawing board since before I
started building my 601 back in 2002 and they have yet to get a kit to
market much less a completed S-LSA.

Or one might say that Vans has surveyed the LSA specs and market and is
carefully developing the RV-12 instead of rushing to market.

I'd be willing to bet that five years from now that the RV-12 will
outnumber all of the other flying homebuilt LSAs.


I have little doubt you are right Van's knows how to create a great kit and
if they had had the RV-12 anywhere close to market when I started building I
might well have been building it instead of the 601XL I'm building now. My
statement was that Van's is coming to the party late not that their aircraft
would be in any way inferior.

My bet is the reason they didn't have an LSA type kit before they did is
that they were too busy with the RV-10. Which given their market was
probably a good idea.

John Ousterhout wrote:
I'd be willing to bet that five years from now that the RV-12 will
outnumber all of the other flying homebuilt LSAs.

In what way will the RV-12 be superior to the Zenith Zodiac? On what basis
is the RV-12 going to overtake market share from a very similar plane that
is already flying as well as from a host of other available LSA models
already flying?

Jim Logajan wrote in
:

John Ousterhout wrote:
I'd be willing to bet that five years from now that the RV-12 will
outnumber all of the other flying homebuilt LSAs.

In what way will the RV-12 be superior to the Zenith Zodiac? On what
basis is the RV-12 going to overtake market share from a very similar
plane that is already flying as well as from a host of other available
LSA models already flying?


It will actually fly at it's rated speed.

The match hole drilling will actually match...

The Zodiac is a great little plane, it was on my short list of 2 of
planes to build. but it has never met it's advertized speeds (go to the
matronics Zodiac list and read the archives of posts of Zodiac builders
if you dont believe me) and many have also complained about poor fit of
the pre-drilled components.

--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

ET wrote:
The Zodiac is a great little plane, it was on my short list of 2 of
planes to build.

It's still on my short list. What was the other plane on your short list,
if you don't mind my asking?

but it has never met it's advertized speeds (go to the
matronics Zodiac list and read the archives of posts of Zodiac builders
if you dont believe me)

Actually I've researched the written material on the Internet regarding the
Zodiac and unless I missed something, those complaints refer to older 601
models. I haven't seen any complaints regarding the Zodiac model making its
rated speed, which I believe has redesigned wings. I haven't ordered the
Kitplane's January 2004 issue to see what the article "Zenith vs. Zenith
Showdown (Zodiac 601 XL - Stol CH 701)" said about it meeting its claimed
speed.

Unfortunately the usefulness of Matronics postings is about on a par with
the usefulness of Usenet postings - at best merely suggestive, but they
always need more authoritative confirmation.

Thomas Borchert schrieb:

If one looks beyond the Ah's and Oh's of the excellently executed
Cessna marketing presentation, one sees two "proof of concept"
airplanes. Both are destined for market categories that are already
well filled with other company's products. As an aside: That means
there are no concepts to prove, really, other than the concept of
Cessna entering those markets. So what we really see is Cessna waking
up to market trends that have been apparent and established for years,

Why does this remind me of Windoze?

Stefan

("Thomas Borchert" wrote)
If one looks beyond the Ah's and Oh's of the excellently executed
Cessna marketing presentation, one sees two "proof of concept"
airplanes. Both are destined for market categories that are already
well filled with other company's products. As an aside: That means
there are no concepts to prove, really, other than the concept of
Cessna entering those markets. So what we really see is Cessna waking
up to market trends that have been apparent and established for years,
if not decades. What we also see is that a certified product from
Cessna in either category is years away.


Cessna's VLJ, Mustang, comes to mind. We think we'll do this - a few years
later, there it is.

The giggle I had at OSH was Cessna reps stating their good looking new
Cessna LSA would do 120 knots.

Hearing that, I'm calling it ...."The Cessna Killer."


Montblack