#1 Piston Fighter was British

The Omaha defenses survived the high altitude bombardment by B17s
which I think was effected by cloud and winds.

The B-24s and B-17s had to drop through the clouds. To avoid hitting
American troops, they aimed conservatively, and as a consequence the
bulk of the explosives landed behind the German beach defenses.

At the altitude the B-26s bombed at Utah, rifle fire was a serious
obstacle.

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 05:24:17 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:

Escorted raids did not begin and end with the Mustang. Look at German
pilot losses in August-November 1943 before the Mustang showed up.
The Mustang accelerated a pre-existing dynamic. I'm not suggesting
that it didn't have a major impact, just that it tends to appropriate
too much of the credit for losses caused by a more diverse force.
Luftwaffe defeats over the battlefronts in the east, over Tunisia or
Sicily or Salerno were not inflicted by the Mustang.

We're speaking of deep penetration.

No, we're talking about German pilot attrittion. It's irrelevant
whether that occurred on deep-penetration missions,
shallow-penetration missions, or over the battlefront.

Where did those German pilot
losses take place--at what distance from the Allied fighter bases?

I don't understand this point. In any case, I don't have that
information. I presume Luftwaffe combat losses (as opposed to
non-combat losses) were largely inflicted by enemy aircraft, with
enemy fighters being the most significant individual factor.

The Mustang's job was to enable bombers to reach Berlin, not Sicily, a
task that was indeed with the Spitfire's capabilities.

Sure. But that's not what I'm arguing about. The war-winning
criticality attributed to the Mustang usually stems from the level of
loss inflicted on the German day fighter arm in the spring of 1944. I
merely want to point out that this critical level of attrition had
already been achieved before the Mustang showed up, and that there
were other aircraft and forces working in concert with the Mustang to
achieve this end.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

In message , ArtKramr
writes

snip

Transports are not combat aircraft. We led the combat units of the 9th on that
morning. If you live near Stansted airport, see the plaque dedicated to the
344th that states that we led the charge for the 9th that morning. Stansted
airport was built for the 344th. Thy cleared and leveled a cowpasture, threw
down a runway put up a load of Neissen huts and we had an instant airfield.

Quibble

Nissan Huts

/Quibble

Mike

"M. J. Powell" wrote in message
...
In message , ArtKramr
writes

snip

Transports are not combat aircraft. We led the combat units of the 9th on
that
morning. If you live near Stansted airport, see the plaque dedicated to
the
344th that states that we led the charge for the 9th that morning.
Stansted
airport was built for the 344th. Thy cleared and leveled a cowpasture,
threw
down a runway put up a load of Neissen huts and we had an instant
airfield.

Quibble

Nissan Huts

/Quibble

Mike

Nissen Hut surely, named after Peter Norman Nissen as I recall.

Keith

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
Date: 7/1/03 6:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: nk.net


"M. J. Powell" wrote in message
...

Quibble

Nissan Huts

/Quibble


Nissen Huts


Who cares as long as the roofs didn't leak and the pot bellied stoves didn'l
smoke up the place.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: "Wolfie"
Date: 6/30/03 10:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: m


"ArtKramr" wrote

We did lead the way for the 9th Air Force that morning.

They sent the bombers in before the transports carrying the
82nd and 101st? Weren't those transports in the 9th?

Transports are not combat aircraft. We led the combat units of the
9th on that morning.

The AF has always considered transports carrying paratroops
to drops to be aircraft fulfilling a combat role. What other
definition for "combat aircraft" is realistic? Sure, they need
fighter protection (or to fly at night), but so do/did most
bombers...

If you live near Stansted airport, see the plaque dedicated to the
344th that states that we led the charge for the 9th that morning.

Well, you know what they say about learning things from reading...

The 344th, AFAIK, led the *bombing* raids for the 9th on D-Day.

Doesn't the 9th AF Official History says a transport unit spearheaded
the 9th's efforts that day?


Transports don't carry guns or bombs.T

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: "Sunny"
Date: 6/30/03 11:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
I never read any books on the subject.
It shows.
I was there. I looked for you but didn't see you, where were you? Read a
thousand books. You still won' t have the feeling of what it was all
about..

I suggest you read a few more books on the whole subject, to balance your
one eyed view.
Looking out from the nose of a medium bomber was not "what it was all
about".


It was fo rme.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 7/1/03 1:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

should have said the war in western europe. Sorry I left that out.

Fair enough, and I agree that the critical period in the west was
D-Day to V-E Day. Nonetheless, the real war existed beforehand. Like
Paul, I'd have been interested to

In Western Europe before D Day there were only impotent failed thrusts that led
to nothing. Dieppe for example. The moment the first Allied soldier set foot
on the Normandy beach, the end was in sight for Germany. We flew two missions
that day. You would have loved the fun.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 7/1/03 1:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Escorted raids did not begin and end with the Mustang. Look at German
pilot losses in August-November

True. we had a few misions where we got Spitfire esocrts. It went like this'
They would pick us up at about the bomb line. Sock in all around ur and stay
with us for a while. Then with a gallant wiggle of wings they would break of
and turn back, Gavin have you have any idea of what it feels like to be in
bomber heading into the Ruhr valley and watch your fighter escort go home and
leave you? No. You can't even know that feeling.You can understand it
intellectually, but you will never really know the feeling. The 51's took us
all the way in and all the way back. That was the difference.And in that
difference lay life and death.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 01 Jul 2003 14:26:35 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

In Western Europe before D Day there were only impotent failed thrusts that led
to nothing.

Some my great-uncles "impotent failed thrusts":

30/31 January 1944. LM310. Berlin. Take off 1708. Landing 2343.

[534 aircraft dispatched, including 440 Lancasters. 33 aircraft lost,
32 of them Lancasters. This was Bomber Command's third raid on Berlin
over the past four nights. It was his eighth trip to Berlin]

Perhaps you might have loved the fun.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003