#1 Piston Fighter was British

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:58:27 -0400, Stephen Harding
wrote:

???
Never mind.

No, you're right, the exchange had become asinine before you
responded. I can't really argue with that.

Well I don't agree with Art's statements that only personal experience is
worth anything in comparison to learned experience. We'd never really
know anything if that were true.

Agreed.

But I will admit I'm a fan of Art's and have just come to accept that he
has very strong opinions about things that aren't going to be easily changed,
and so be it. No point getting flustered about it.

I should learn from your approach, I suspect.

Consider yourself fortunate you are not French!

One flamewar at a time.... Bizarrely, I normally have some respect
his opinions even when I strongly disagree. It's his approach that
annoys, as I would suspect it would annoy him if other people regarded
his experiences with the same cavalier disregard he apparently views
other people's contributions to winning World War Two.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 22:52:18 +0100, Greg Hennessy
wrote:

Trying to track down his DoB in 1895 has been difficult. If I can get that,
I maybe able to get my hands on his service records.

I found sifting the PRO for personal records a real pain, although the
staff are helpful (provided your a direct relative, I believe). Get
as much evidence from your mother as possible, assuming she got
whatever documentation would have come down from him & her mother.
Good luck.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

On 02 Jul 2003 02:37:48 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Now you are taking credit for what your relatires did? disgusting.

I suggest you take another look at how *you* characterised what he and
everybody else involved in fighting the war before D-Day were doing.
Let me know if you really believe your comments about him and millions
of others are appropriate or accurate.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

On 02 Jul 2003 04:17:57 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Oh, this coming semester I will be adding Chaucer in middle English
to the schedule.

I assume you personally experienced a Medieval pilgrimage from
Southwark to Canterbury then. I look forward to reading "The
Bombadier's Tale" in the next edition of Chaucer.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

"Drewe Manton" wrote in message
. 4...
| "Dave Kearton" waxed lyrical
| :
|
| Personally, I wonder if any other generation would ever stand
| toe-to-toe in a bleeding match like WWI or II as yours did.
| We've all become accustomed to 'surgical' warfare with minimal
| casualties among our side or the innocent bystanders, witness the
| protests about the civilian casualties in OIF.
|
|
| Every generation wonders that about the succeeding generation. And when
| it comes to the crunch it seems to me that the people on the sharp end
| are rarely any different to those who did the job in WWI, WWII, Korea or
| anywhere else. It's the policy makers and public opinion that shapes what
| happens, not the infantryman or airman at the sharp end. I think we do
| these people a disservice by wondering these things.
|
| --
| --------
| Regards
| Drewe


A valid point.


I was however, musing at the general populace, not the guy on the sharp
end. There's little doubt that a disciplined defence force will do
what they've been trained to do. It's the unwashed masses that I
wonder about, how many casualties will a society suffer before they decide
that the cause just isn't worth it.



Regards



Dave Kearton

"The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" wrote in
message ...
On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:50:36 +0100, Greg Hennessy
wrote:

If you want to discuss something, talk about the "impotence" of my
relatives who were fighting the war long before you arrived on the
scene. Eight times to Berlin.

How many times did you do that?

He sure as hell wasn't freezing the ******** off himself on artic convoys
as my maternal grandfather was.

Funnily enough the old boy had plenty of time for other people and
their experiences, and thought his worth passing on in writing - I've
got them in front of me now, although it's a shame he didn't leave
more.

I have nothing but respect for anybody who did the Murmansk run. Did
he record anything about his experiences? Time passes and the
memories pass away as they do.



Agree about the respect due to those people. Back in 1969 I was
stuck in hospital for a while and in the next bed was an ex merchant
seaman who had been on that run in WW2. He woke up several
times screaming with nightmares about that time. It seems he
had two ships torpedoed under him during the war but hey he
wasnt even a combatant by some people's standards not being in
the armed forces.

Keith

On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:41:29 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:

Agree about the respect due to those people. Back in 1969 I was
stuck in hospital for a while and in the next bed was an ex merchant
seaman who had been on that run in WW2. He woke up several
times screaming with nightmares about that time. It seems he
had two ships torpedoed under him during the war but hey he
wasnt even a combatant by some people's standards not being in
the armed forces.

????

IIRC, they were only paid up to the minute the ship they were on was
sunk. In effect, they got financially penalised for being torpedoed
and surviving. Unbelievable.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:37:59 -0400, av8r
wrote:

The 344th BG was the first group to attack Utah Beach. They bombed a
number of German coastal artillery sites. The next group over Utah
Beach was the 387th BG. Due to cloud cover, all bombing was carried out
below the cloud base. As I indicated in my previous e-mail, the cloud
base ranged from 1,650 ASL to 3,000 feet ASL. The 366th BG was the last
to drop its ordnance, just a mere five minutes before the initial
landings took place.

Chris, does your source say at what altitude the Marauders bombed
from? (I realize that they were stacked up.)

Art, what altitude do you think you bombed from?

thanks - Dan

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

"Dave Kearton" waxed lyrical
news
I was however, musing at the general populace, not the guy on the
sharp end. There's little doubt that a disciplined defence
force will do what they've been trained to do. It's the
unwashed masses that I wonder about, how many casualties will a
society suffer before they decide that the cause just isn't worth it.



I think it seems to be largely connected with the perceived threat.
Such large sections of the population here in the UK seemed opposed to
the Iraq adventure because they could perceive no immediate threat (no
matter *WHAT* Mr Blair told us!). US opinion was largely against getting
involved in WWII until Pearl Harbour, and it took Germany's continued
stomping all over Europe before we in the UK perceived the threat as
real. When there is a clear and obvious threat on the public's immediate
horizon things change, until then, for the large majority of the "great
unwashed" you're dealing in hypotheticals, and in those situations they
are far more resistant to getting involved and taking the casualties.
Just my take of course. . .

--
--------
Regards
Drewe
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity

On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 14:28:49 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

I don't remember ever doing this, even if you feel your dismissal of
the efforts of other participants in the war is an appropriate or
acceptable response to such behaviour.

You didn't do that, I think it unlikely anyone did as Art describes.

It's a bit sad really, and sounds paranoid. I hope he finds what he
wants from veterans groups or lists, as it doesn't sound like he's
getting the audience he would prefer in r.a.m.

The starting point for this inanity was my repsonse to Dan Ford about
the Mustang and Spitfire "shooting aircraft down over Berlin". Art
went on, in response, to describe everything that happened in the west
before D-Day as "trivial" or "impotent thrusts that lead to nothing".
While this annoyed me, I initially responded with moderate followups
which included statements like:

"I'm grateful for what you did, Art, but you weren't completely alone
in what you did. That takes nothing away from the risks you and your
crew and group ran and had to face every day to get your job done."

This, of course,was immediately cut from Arts response, which was
characteristic of his standard "You weren't there so you know ****-all
about it" approach, which has been a staple of r.a.m. from at least
1998 and has been used to delegitimise numerous poster's contributions
since then.

I gave Art the option of responding to reasonable discussion over that
issue and make the effort to explain my motives:

"I'm not questioning your personal experience or trying to discount
it, I wish you could see that."

Or he could opt for a flamewar if he preferred. He clearly prefers to
cut the relevant rational discourse and go for a polarized flamewar.
The only explanation I can think of for this is deliberate trolling.

Gavin Bailey


--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003