chain of events

On Mar 10, 12:59 am, Dave S wrote:
KM wrote:
On Mar 9, 9:39 am, Dave S wrote:


Dave, you also have to understand that the ATC facilities are at two
separate locations.

I understand that perfectly. Tower in one place. VOR in another.

Dave, with all respect, you dont understand.Tower in one place,
approach controll facility in another.If you get a frequency change
and try unsucsessfuly to check on what are you gonna do? Go back to
the last assigned, right?I think the last thing you are going to do is
just keep motoring along and ignore turning to final and ignore your
TCAS.

I once was a volunteer fireman for about 10 years... in that time, we
had a big snake go slithering up equipment in a substation one night. I
guess the hum and warmth of the stuff was just tooo inviting to resist.
He completed a short circuit that took out power to thousands of homes,
caused a PCB oil fed fire and had the fire marshall's office initially
investigating it as a terrorist act until we found the charred skeleton
of the snake. (Pre 2001 but after 1994 - the first WTC). The transformer
bit is quite credible, and if you are ever near one when one lets go,
its an underwear changing event.

Wow, being a fireman had to be pretty interesting.I have seen a
transformer let go once.I dont know what size it was but it was
spectacular.There are some plausable elements to "Capt" Dougs story,
and that is what makes it entertaining."Capt" Doug reminds me of Cliff
Claven, who was a charatcer on the TV show "Cheers".Cliff was a bar
fly who always had in depth knowlege about everything, but in real
life he was a mailman who lived with his mom.I am not trying to knock
"Captain" Doug, because Cliff's words of wisdom were always amusing
and he was one of the most popular characters on the show.Captain Doug
is just like Cliff in that he posts about stuff he knows nothing
about.But, many of his posts are plausible enough that they are
amusing and entertaining.I hope I havent chased the guy off by asking
what he really does for a living.The only sad part of this is the
couple of dickheads (Matthew Barrow and a guy going by Kilomike) who
thought this story was true.

... something like this happens, with big iron yanking and
banking on the final approach course, after an explosion at an airport,
with a power loss.... and never heard a word about it except here.. hmmm..

Delta had two incidents out of LAX, before I got there (G), and they
both made national headlines.A few years ago I had an incident that
caused a return to the airport, and with the advent of cell phones,
one of the local news stations actually called Delta for a comment
BEFORE whe could taxi to the gate and deplane and go downstairs to
talk to the chief pilots office about it.

The only sad part of this is the
couple of dickheads (Matthew Barrow and a guy going by Kilomike) who
thought this story was true.

Well, I thought it was true. I've seen enough other kinds of things
gone spectacularly wrong due to a single dumb point of failure that it
would not surprise me if something like this were in fact true.

And actual accident reports of real crashes are far more incredible.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Mar 10, 1:04 pm, "KM" wrote:
On Mar 10, 12:59 am, Dave S wrote:

KM wrote:
On Mar 9, 9:39 am, Dave S wrote:

Dave, you also have to understand that the ATC facilities are at two
separate locations.

I understand that perfectly. Tower in one place. VOR in another.

Dave, with all respect, you dont understand.Tower in one place,
approach controll facility in another.If you get a frequency change
and try unsucsessfuly to check on what are you gonna do? Go back to
the last assigned, right?I think the last thing you are going to do is
just keep motoring along and ignore turning to final and ignore your
TCAS.


Forgive me for asking, but if I can't raise tower and TCAS is going
off, and the CDI shows I still have not intercepted the localizer, my
first priority would be to fly the airplane on the last assigned
heading and figure out if the TCAS warning is real. Attempting to go
back to the last assigned frequency will be a low priority item, no?

On Mar 10, 11:41 am, "Andrew Sarangan" wrote:

Forgive me for asking, but if I can't raise tower and TCAS is going
off, and the CDI shows I still have not intercepted the localizer, my
first priority would be to fly the airplane on the last assigned
heading and figure out if the TCAS warning is real. Attempting to go
back to the last assigned frequency will be a low priority item, no?- Hide quoted text -

Andy, every situation is a little different but I really dont think
this story is plausible on several accounts.Let me answer your
question in several parts.First, in the event of lost comm you would
join the course you were being vectored for.The A340 crew would have a
flag on the ILS (The CDI changes color so this wouldnt go unnoticed)
but, the LNAV course to the airport would still be depicted on the ND
(I know every airline does things a little differently but I am sure
at least one of the pilots would be required to be in the MAP mode
during an approach).Another thing is that given the circumstances in
the story, the TCAS would probably issue 3 or 4 RAs in this timeframe
(In both jets no less).We are required to respond to an RA (and answer
to ATC later).I dont know how you would figure out if a TA or RA is
false. Also, if the pilots can see an explosion on the airport, it is
highly unlikely they would overshoot final while looking right at
it.The last part of your post is right on the $$$, they would aviate
and then communicate.
KM

The TCAS is real, you are required to follow the RA.




Andrew Sarangan wrote:

Forgive me for asking, but if I can't raise tower and TCAS is going
off, and the CDI shows I still have not intercepted the localizer, my
first priority would be to fly the airplane on the last assigned
heading and figure out if the TCAS warning is real. Attempting to go
back to the last assigned frequency will be a low priority item, no?

"Newps" wrote in message The TCAS is real, you are required to follow the
RA.

RAs are inhibited below a certain altitude in landing mode.

D.

Capt.Doug wrote:

"Newps" wrote in message The TCAS is real, you are required to follow the

RA.

RAs are inhibited below a certain altitude in landing mode.

Yes, I was aware of that. What is that altitude on say an ILS? Is that
altitude an FAA mandated altitude, the TCAS manufacturers preset specs
or a company ops spec?

In article ,
Newps wrote:

Capt.Doug wrote:

"Newps" wrote in message The TCAS is real, you are required to follow the

RA.

RAs are inhibited below a certain altitude in landing mode.

Yes, I was aware of that. What is that altitude on say an ILS? Is that
altitude an FAA mandated altitude, the TCAS manufacturers preset specs
or a company ops spec?

The RA and TA inhibits are specified in the AC for TCAS (AC 20-151)


INHIBIT PARAMETERS

Increase Descent RA Inhibited below 1650 ft AGL while climbing and
inhibited below 1450 ft AGL while descending.

Descend RA Inhibited below 1200 ft AGL while climbing and
inhibited below 1000 ft AGL while descending.

TA Voice Messages Inhibited below 400 ft AGL while descending and
inhibited below 600 ft AGL while climbing.

RAs Inhibited below 1100 ft AGL while climbing, and
inhibited below 900 ft AGL while descending.
(TCAS automatically reverts to TA only).

Self-Test Can be inhibited when airborne.

Advisory Priority Automatically reverts to TA ONLY when higher
priority advisories (such as GPWS/TAWS and
Windshear) occur.

Climb RA Can be inhibited, based upon aircraft performance
capability.

Increase Climb RA Can be inhibited, based upon aircraft performance
capability.

--
Bob Noel
(gave up lookingn for a particular sig the lawyer will)

On Mar 11, 8:02 pm, Bob Noel
wrote:
In article ,

Newps wrote:
Capt.Doug wrote:

"Newps" wrote in message The TCAS is real, you are required to follow the

RA.

RAs are inhibited below a certain altitude in landing mode.

Yes, I was aware of that. What is that altitude on say an ILS? Is that
altitude an FAA mandated altitude, the TCAS manufacturers preset specs
or a company ops spec?

The RA and TA inhibits are specified in the AC for TCAS (AC 20-151)

INHIBIT PARAMETERS

Increase Descent RA Inhibited below 1650 ft AGL while climbing and
inhibited below 1450 ft AGL while descending.

Descend RA Inhibited below 1200 ft AGL while climbing and
inhibited below 1000 ft AGL while descending.

TA Voice Messages Inhibited below 400 ft AGL while descending and
inhibited below 600 ft AGL while climbing.

RAs Inhibited below 1100 ft AGL while climbing, and
inhibited below 900 ft AGL while descending.
(TCAS automatically reverts to TA only).

Self-Test Can be inhibited when airborne.

Advisory Priority Automatically reverts to TA ONLY when higher
priority advisories (such as GPWS/TAWS and
Windshear) occur.

Climb RA Can be inhibited, based upon aircraft performance
capability.

Increase Climb RA Can be inhibited, based upon aircraft performance
capability.

--
Bob Noel
(gave up lookingn for a particular sig the lawyer will)

Bob, thanks for pointing all of this out.I think Newps was asking more
in a retorical sense because an inhibited RA does not really apply to
this story.
Imagine that if the A340 crew never joined the LOC then they would not
have started a desent.This would put them at 1500 to 1700 AGL (typical
for a vector on to final from the north in LAX).Now if they passed 200
feet below (The aleged) Captain Doug's budy that would put his budy at
1700 to 1900 AGL (Aprox), so an inhibited RA would be a mute point.

The last people who tried to figure out if a TCAS warning was real were the
Russian pilots who had a midair over Switzerland a couple of years ago.
When you get a TCAS warning, you follow the TCAS instructions immediately.
Otherwise, you are taking your life in your hands.

Mike Schumann

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Mar 10, 1:04 pm, "KM" wrote:
On Mar 10, 12:59 am, Dave S wrote:

KM wrote:
On Mar 9, 9:39 am, Dave S wrote:

Dave, you also have to understand that the ATC facilities are at two
separate locations.

I understand that perfectly. Tower in one place. VOR in another.

Dave, with all respect, you dont understand.Tower in one place,
approach controll facility in another.If you get a frequency change
and try unsucsessfuly to check on what are you gonna do? Go back to
the last assigned, right?I think the last thing you are going to do is
just keep motoring along and ignore turning to final and ignore your
TCAS.


Forgive me for asking, but if I can't raise tower and TCAS is going
off, and the CDI shows I still have not intercepted the localizer, my
first priority would be to fly the airplane on the last assigned
heading and figure out if the TCAS warning is real. Attempting to go
back to the last assigned frequency will be a low priority item, no?





--
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