B29 - "Necessary Evil"

"Gernot Hassenpflug" wrote in message
Well no, as pointed out by other posters. But my question is, was
| Kyoto the primary target for the 2nd bombing mission that eventually
| devastated Nagasaki, as I have read in one report on the internet. I
| always thought Kyoto was not bombed due to the efforts of a certain US
| diplomat (?) who IIRC is actually buried in Kyoto.... maybe a myth.
|
| From my reading, I thought that Hiroshima was the primary target due
| to the concentration of military installations and command
| centers. Nagasaki was chosen because of the naval base
| installations. I don't know how true the allegations are that a city
| with modern concrete structures (Hiroshima) vs one with mostly
| traditional housing (Nagasaki) were chosen. Please correct my mistaken
| impressions!
|
| As far as a further mission is concerned, I thought that in the event
| of a third mission, not Tokyo but Sapporo was to be targetted. How far
| did plans for a third mission go, I did not find out even if there was
| enough fissionable material on hand to make another bomb immediately,
| or whether that would have taken further weeks or perhaps months.
|
| Any useful references would be appreciated, Google was not exactly
| conclusive and this is not my subject, hence I am not able to judge
| the quality of the references easily.
|
| Many thanks,
| Gernot
| --
| G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan


According to "Ruin from the air" Sphere books Ltd


Kyoto was favoured by General Groves as a target because it was a big city
that "must have been involved with war work"

Groves had it placed on the reserved target list for this reason.
Given that Kyoto was the ancient capital of Japan, prior to Tokyo, it was
an important cultural city, whose destruction may not have the effect on
Japanese morale that was desired.

After the war, Leslie Groves claimed he had put Kyoto on the target list ,
to protect it against conventional bombing.




Works for me....




Cheers

Dave Kearton

"Dave Kearton" wrote:

"Gernot Hassenpflug"
wrote in message
Well no, as pointed out by other posters. But
my question is, was
| Kyoto the primary target for the 2nd bombing
mission that eventually
| devastated Nagasaki, as I have read in one
report on the internet. I
| always thought Kyoto was not bombed due to
the efforts of a certain US
| diplomat (?) who IIRC is actually buried in
Kyoto.... maybe a myth.
|
| From my reading, I thought that Hiroshima
was the primary target due
| to the concentration of military installations
and command
| centers. Nagasaki was chosen because of the
naval base
| installations. I don't know how true the allegations
are that a city
| with modern concrete structures (Hiroshima)
vs one with mostly
| traditional housing (Nagasaki) were chosen.
Please correct my mistaken
| impressions!
|
| As far as a further mission is concerned,
I thought that in the event
| of a third mission, not Tokyo but Sapporo
was to be targetted. How far
| did plans for a third mission go, I did not
find out even if there was
| enough fissionable material on hand to make
another bomb immediately,
| or whether that would have taken further weeks
or perhaps months.
|
| Any useful references would be appreciated,
Google was not exactly
| conclusive and this is not my subject, hence
I am not able to judge
| the quality of the references easily.
|
| Many thanks,
| Gernot
| --
| G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history
fan


According to "Ruin from the air" Sphere books
Ltd


Kyoto was favoured by General Groves as a target
because it was a big city
that "must have been involved with war work"

Groves had it placed on the reserved target
list for this reason.
Given that Kyoto was the ancient capital of
Japan, prior to Tokyo, it was
an important cultural city, whose destruction
may not have the effect on
Japanese morale that was desired.

After the war, Leslie Groves claimed he had
put Kyoto on the target list ,
to protect it against conventional bombing.




Works for me....




Cheers

Dave Kearton





These were the targets as per the order given to Gen. Carl Spaatz, who
was the CO of the Strategic Air Force Pacific: Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki,
Niigata. Additional targets were to be selected later if more than four bombs
needed to be dropped.
Tokyo was practically worthless as an atomic target by this time.
Regarding Kyoto: Groves wanted to hit Kyoto, but Secretary of War Stimson
overruled him on this and had it taken off the list, and Truman agreed. Groves
wanted to reinstate Kyoto if more bombs were necessary after the first four.


Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

These were the targets as per the order given to Gen. Carl Spaatz, who
was the CO of the Strategic Air Force Pacific: Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki,
Niigata

Matt, what is your source for this?

To judge by the radio traffic, Spaatz has nothing to do with
targeting. (It was his headquarters that urged that Tokyo be bombed.)

I've never heard of Niigata, either as city or as target. It's very
small--300,000 in 1950. What was there that made it of interest?

Kokura as I recall had one of the last oil refineries still
functioning in Japan, and I think it was bombed in the
"thousand-plane" raid of Aug 14/15, with the last bombs falling after
midnight local time, when Japan had dispatched its surrender message
to Switzerland.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

These were the targets as per the order given to Gen. Carl Spaatz, who
was the CO of the Strategic Air Force Pacific: Hiroshima, Kokura,
Nagasaki,
Niigata

Matt, what is your source for this?

To judge by the radio traffic, Spaatz has nothing to do with
targeting. (It was his headquarters that urged that Tokyo be bombed.)

I've never heard of Niigata, either as city or as target. It's very
small--300,000 in 1950. What was there that made it of interest?

From a bit of persistent Googling, it appears that all four cities were
relatively untouched by previous bombing raids which would allow the true
extent of any damage to demonstrate the power of the atom bomb.
Also, Niigata was/is a large port on the Sea of Japan with a tanker
terminal, an oil refinery, and iron works, all of which were still working.
It got ruled out because it was too far away during the raid.

http://www.dannen.com/decision/targets.html#D

HTH,
Nick

From a bit of persistent Googling, it appears that all four cities were
relatively untouched by previous bombing raids which would allow the true

I'd rather see a citation in a book, with sources I can check!


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

From a bit of persistent Googling, it appears that all four cities were
relatively untouched by previous bombing raids which would allow the true

I'd rather see a citation in a book, with sources I can check!

Good point, but the actual source is noted at the top of the page. I'm sure
it could be checked and verified.

Nick

Okay, what was the url again?

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:41:22 +0100, "Nick Pedley"
wrote:


"Cub Driver" wrote in message
.. .

From a bit of persistent Googling, it appears that all four cities were
relatively untouched by previous bombing raids which would allow the true

I'd rather see a citation in a book, with sources I can check!

Good point, but the actual source is noted at the top of the page. I'm sure
it could be checked and verified.

Nick


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Cub Driver wrote:

From a bit of persistent Googling, it appears that all four cities were
relatively untouched by previous bombing raids which would allow the true

I'd rather see a citation in a book, with sources I can check!

"Downfall," by Richard B. Frank, or "War’s End: An Eyewitness Account of
America’s Last Atomic Mission" by Maj Gen Charles W. Sweeney, USAF, Retired
(He flew the Great Artiste on the Hiroshima mission, as well as Bock's Car
against Kokura = Nagasaki), has details. One of the two, I forget which,
says that Niigata was always considered the least favorite target of the four,
as it was considerably further away from the Marianas than the others. The
cities were set aside from firebomb attacks so that damage would be easy to
assess afterwards, both from the air and later, on the ground.

Guy

Cub Driver wrote:

These were the targets as per the order given
to Gen. Carl Spaatz, who
was the CO of the Strategic Air Force Pacific:
Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki,
Niigata

Matt, what is your source for this?

To judge by the radio traffic, Spaatz has nothing
to do with
targeting. (It was his headquarters that urged
that Tokyo be bombed.)

I've never heard of Niigata, either as city
or as target. It's very
small--300,000 in 1950. What was there that
made it of interest?

Kokura as I recall had one of the last oil refineries
still
functioning in Japan, and I think it was bombed
in the
"thousand-plane" raid of Aug 14/15, with the
last bombs falling after
midnight local time, when Japan had dispatched
its surrender message
to Switzerland.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
Day One by Peter Wyden. It quotes the message to Spaatz from Hap Arnold
giving the targets. It also noted that "further instructions will be issued
concerning targets in addition to those above." The order came from Hap Arnold
as Groves wasn't in the AAF chain of command. Niigata was listed as a target
because it simply hadn't been hit yet. Kokura BTW had Japan's largest chemical
weapons production facility (among other industry). It would have been hit
likely on the 16th or later if Fat Man no. 2 had been shipped. Tibbets had
vowed after Sweeney's mission that if a third strike was needed, he would
lead it.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

George W. Marquardt, an Army Air Forces pilot who took part in the
World War II atomic bomb raids on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, died Aug. 15
at a nursing-care center in Murray, Utah. He was 84.
On the morning of Aug. 6, 1945, Marquardt, an Army major, flew a B-29
Superfortress carrying photographic equipment over Hiroshima.
His bomber -- designated No. 91 but later called Necessary Evil by its
crew --

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/6603618.htm